French Derby To Go To Ten Furlongs !

[Ardross]

French Derby could be reduced to 10 furlongs

by Desmond Stoneham


THE DISTANCE of the Prix du Jockey-Club - the French Derby - could be reduced from a mile and a half under radical new proposals set to be presented to the France Galop board on Monday.

The scheme to improve and modernise a major part of the French programme is the brainchild of the new President of France Galop, Edouard de Rothschild, and the institution's dynamo Louis Romanet. It could have major ramifications for the rest of the European Classic scene if accepted by the European Pattern race committee before the end of the year.

The distance of the Prix du Jockey-Club would be reduced from a mile and a half to ten and a half furlongs with the Prix Lupin, the principal trial for the Classic since 1896, scrapped.

The Grand Prix de Paris and the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud will be replaced by two new Group 1 races. The former will be run over 12 furlongs on July 14 at Saint-Cloud and the latter over a similar distance at Longchamp at the end of June.

In addition, the Prix Jean Prat will have its distance shortened by a furlong to a mile and the race will be moved from early June at Chantilly to early July at Saint-Cloud.

There are also changes to the trip for several of the remaining trials leading up to the Jockey-Club.

Rothschild said: "This is currently only a project which will be presented to the France Galop board next Monday before we try and seek the agreement of our European partners later in the year."

"This is the right time for modification and reform and we must think positively. It is not the act of a new President who wants to make his mark but just a point of departure."

"Our project is not a revolution but an evolution. For some time we have realised that the quality of the horses in the Prix de Diane (10 1/2 furlongs) is superior to those in the Jockey-Cloud apart from when you have exceptional horses like Dalakhani and Peintre Celebre."

"It is our duty to improve the standard and attract the best horses to run in the Jockey-Club. The image of the Classic will be improved and this will enable us to find a new and high status sponsor for the race."

"This project has not been created behind closed doors. The subject is now open to debate and any new ideas. We want the maximum number of professionals to take part and have input." adds Rothschild.

Many items were taken into account before plans for change were drawn up such as the closeness of the Epsom Derby to the Jockey-Club.

The idea to have a Triple Crownof Derbys was dropped after the English and Irish refused to move dates and the impossibility of having the King George open to four-year-olds only also played a role in the proposed reform.

Runners in the one mile Poulains rarely went on to the Jockey-Club and, as a Group 1 event, the Lupin was considered too tough a test just three weeks before a run in the same Classic.

If all goes according to plan the revamped Jockey-Club will have a a total purse of €1.5 millions (up 400,000) and prize money for the shorter Jean Prat (July 3) will double to €400,000.

The race replacing the Grand Prix de Saint-Cloud for four-year-olds and up next June 26 will be worth a total of €350,000 and the new 12 furlong event for three-year-olds on July 14 has €500,000 up for grabs.

[Melendez]

A sensible move, IMO. If it goes ahead, it will really stifle the Epsom Derby in terms of class.

[simmo]

I'm not so convinced that it will greatly affect the Derby - it will retain it's greater status, and the milers trying to step up who will go to France instead almost invariably don't stay at Epsom anyway which I personally have always found to be a bit of anti-climax.

[Ardross]

I can't see how this can be approved without a wholesale shake up of the European pattern

[Guest_]

How close is Epsom to the French Derby in terms of time. If there was a nice break it would be a good race to aim the non stayers from the Epsom Derby with the stayers going on as usual to the Irish version.

[Melendez]

the milers trying to step up who will go to France instead almost invariably don't stay at Epsom anyway which I personally have always found to be a bit of anti-climax.

While this is true, it doesn't half help the build up to the race wondering if they will stay. And the ones that do, are the potential greats.

[simmo]

Just a thought, can anyone think of a horse who has won the Prix Jean Prat in recent years who went on to really prove themselves an excellent Group 1 horse. Bago has something to prove, Vespone has becoming exceedingly disappointing. The only one that I can think of is that one (the name of which escapes me) which went on to win the Dubai World Cup - and even that is a bit tenuous.

[Ardross]

Moving the Prix Jean Prat should be stopped by the Pattern as it will come into direct conflict with the St James's Palace - the French seem to be able to get away with these things - remember the Foret being moved to the same weekend as the Challenge Stakes in the old days horses regularly ran in both indeed Moorestyle won them both

[graham]

The French have been quite ruthless in changing their pattern races. There was uproar when they reduced the distance of the Grand Prix de Paris but time has proved the decision right. A virtual two mile race for 3yo's so early in the season wouldn't get any entries now

Add to that the Prix Dollar, Royal-Oak, Cadran & Foret all being moved which has led to a very healthy end of season programme, I get the impression this will be approved

What bothers me is that it seems a nod to breeders who are fixated by speed, and although on it's own I don't have too much of a problem in the drop in distance, I'm concerned that this may not be the last of it

Regarding the Jean Prat, the horse you're thinking of is Almutawakel (1998), Simmo. Other recent winners include Rouvres (2002), Olden Times (2001), Suances (2000), Golden Snake (1999), Starborough (1997) - none of which set the world on fire afterwards. In fact you could argue that the last great horse to win it was Riverman!

If they are determined to drop the distance and retain it's group 1 status surely it should be 7f. The pattern race system is crying out for at least another couple of 7f group 1's, and this would be a good place to start

[Irish Stamp]

Croco Rouge won the Jean Prat IIRC.

[simmo]

Originally posted by Irish Stamp@Sep 16 2004, 12:53 PM
Croco Rouge won the Jean Prat IIRC.

Did it? I seem to recall Croco Rouge being a Lupin/Jockey Club horse????

[Irish Stamp]

Originally posted by simmo+Sep 16 2004, 01:16 PM-->

QUOTE (simmo @ Sep 16 2004, 01:16 PM)

Reply With Quote 17th September 2004, 9:59 PM #13 LUKE View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Senior Member Join Date May 2003 Location Waterford Posts 8,295 Thanks 272 Thanked 333 Times in 265 Posts I have no doubts that this is the way forward.A triple crown of 3 races between a mile and 12 furlongs would be winnable and prestigious.I would say that the first of the major European racing countries to do it will see an upsurge of interest in its classic races. Reply With Quote 17th September 2004, 11:51 PM #14 Venusian View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Senior Member Join Date May 2003 Posts 1,265 Thanks 9 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts I don't see why incompetence and fashion amongst breeders should dictate that the distances of some of the top races should be reduced. Or is this yet another example of mindless, president Tone-inspired America-worship? (Nearly all American pattern races are run at distances between 8 and 10 furlongs, so we must do the same, so that the Americans will like us). If you're going to mess around with classic race distances, here's a much better idea: leave the Derby and St Leger as they are, but increase the distance of the 2000 Guineas to 10f. Better value for racing fans, and better for the breed. Don't forget - you heard it here first. Reply With Quote 17th September 2004, 11:57 PM #15 Irish Stamp View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Super Moderator Join Date Mar 2004 Location Brighton Posts 8,583 Thanks 5 Thanked 389 Times in 162 Posts Think the whole thoroughbred breeding industry needs a few more lesser distance races. Flat breeding whether we like it or not is heavily inbred, more so IMO than the jumps racing. With inbreeding comes certain genetic traits such as low red blood cell count and smaller trachea (windpipe) which enables the horse to run faster but over a shorter period of time. Eventually if the pattern race system stays as it is the best horse's will be contesting the 6-10f races whilst the 12f races will primarily be won by 10f horses going the extra 2f because they are forced to not because they stay - such horses will run fewer races etc. Martin Hurricane Fly - whatever he runs in he wins Twitter: @Quevega Reply With Quote 18th September 2004, 12:28 AM #16 Venusian View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Senior Member Join Date May 2003 Posts 1,265 Thanks 9 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts Irish Stamp, there is probably less inbreeding practised by thoroughbred breeders today than in the past. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you go back over the last 200 years, the further you go back, the more inbreeding there seems to have been. The breeder who most recently dabbled in close inbreeding was Marcel Boussac during the 40s and 50s, who was keen on close-up duplications of Tourbillon, France's best-ever stallion. His horses seemed to stay all right! You say "With inbreeding comes certain genetic traits such as low red blood cell count and smaller trachea...". Do you have any evidence to support this? And, in any case, I don't see how these defects, however caused, can enable a horse to run faster over shorter distances. I'd have thought it would result in a horse running slower over shorter distances! Reply With Quote 18th September 2004, 12:32 AM #17 Irish Stamp View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Super Moderator Join Date Mar 2004 Location Brighton Posts 8,583 Thanks 5 Thanked 389 Times in 162 Posts Venusian most of what i have put is from reading up on the subject and of articles in various horse magazines - H+H, Pacemaker, Blood Horse, TT etc. and books (most of which are pretty old - pre 1990) so indeed it could all be outdated information. I used the wrong language - what i meant to say was that they couldn't run over such distances as 12-14f when immature - eg. less than 4 or 5 years old. Some would argue that the St. Leger is an example of a race losing prestige due to breeding, not just due to its location in relation to the Arc which has always been the premier 12f race on the continent. Martin Hurricane Fly - whatever he runs in he wins Twitter: @Quevega Reply With Quote 18th September 2004, 12:53 AM #18 Venusian View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Senior Member Join Date May 2003 Posts 1,265 Thanks 9 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts Fair enough IS, I misread/understood your wording. But I still think you're wrong! One aspect I do agree with, up to a point, is that it can be more difficult for young stayers these days inasmuch as races tend to be run at a much truer pace than in the past. For example, I'm pretty certain that, in its prime, the old Grand Prix de Paris (run over 3000m) was run with a more sedate early pace than would be the case today. Reply With Quote 18th September 2004, 12:58 AM #19 Irish Stamp View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Super Moderator Join Date Mar 2004 Location Brighton Posts 8,583 Thanks 5 Thanked 389 Times in 162 Posts Think my wording was way out. Fair enough about thinking i'm wrong but in the same way as we have altered the GP De Paris the US have changed the distance of the Jockey Club Gold Cup from 2m to 10f, which IMO has been a huge success. Their is now to the best of my knowledge only one 13f+ Graded stakes event in the USA (San Juan Capistrano Invitational at around 14f). Such a bias in terms of scheduling resulted from breeders wanting to breed Secretariat again but the Belmont remains at 12f - i'm pretty sure there'd have been at least 2 Triple Crown winners (Charismatic and Smarty Jones) had the race been shortened to 10f. All in all its swings and roundabouts and the race schedule meets demand for races, if the race isn't attracting a high enough class of horse it is either altered a bit or is downgraded. Martin Hurricane Fly - whatever he runs in he wins Twitter: @Quevega Reply With Quote 5th March 2007, 9:53 PM #20 Triptych View Profile View Forum Posts View Blog Entries View Articles Senior Member Join Date Jun 2003 Posts 855 Thanks 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts The Italian Oaks has now been reduced in distance from 11 furlongs to 10 and has also dropped from a Group 1 to a Group 2. Not as significant a move as reducing the French Derby distance but yet another step along that same path. An eye for an eye, and the whole world would be blind. - Kahlil Gibran Reply With Quote Page 1 of 2 12 Last Jump to page: Quick Navigation General Racing Topics Top Site Areas Settings Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home Forums Talking Horses News and Announcements Talking Horses Official Announcements Talking Horses News Forum Information & New Members Introduce yourself Forum suggestions Bug and issues reports General Racing Topics General Racing Topics Bookmakers Betting Offers Bookmakers Free Bets, Opening Offers and Bonuses Other Sports Other Sports General Chit Chat Chit Chat What are you watching? What are you listening to? What are you reading? Photography The Archives Forum Gold World Cup 2018 UEFA Euro 2016 « Previous Thread | Next Thread » Similar Threads The Derby & Irish Derby 2009 By Guest_ in forum Forum Gold Replies: 1400 Last Post: 7th June 2012, 9:33 AM French Derby By Gearoid in forum General Racing Topics Replies: 33 Last Post: 7th June 2010, 3:00 PM French Help By Irish Stamp in forum Chit Chat Replies: 36 Last Post: 20th July 2009, 10:08 PM Royston French.............. By Merlin the Magician in forum General Racing Topics Replies: 18 Last Post: 3rd July 2008, 2:54 AM French Derby By Guest_ in forum General Racing Topics Replies: 37 Last Post: 1st June 2008, 7:51 PM Posting Permissions You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts   BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On [VIDEO] code is On HTML code is On Forum Rules -- vB4 Default Style -- Default Mobile Style Contact Us Talking Horses Archive Top All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:32 AM. Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved. (c) Talking Horses 1999-2022

[LUKE]

I have no doubts that this is the way forward.A triple crown of 3 races between a mile and 12 furlongs would be winnable and prestigious.I would say that the first of the major European racing countries to do it will see an upsurge of interest in its classic races.

[Venusian]

I don't see why incompetence and fashion amongst breeders should dictate that the distances of some of the top races should be reduced. Or is this yet another example of mindless, president Tone-inspired America-worship? (Nearly all American pattern races are run at distances between 8 and 10 furlongs, so we must do the same, so that the Americans will like us).

If you're going to mess around with classic race distances, here's a much better idea: leave the Derby and St Leger as they are, but increase the distance of the 2000 Guineas to 10f. Better value for racing fans, and better for the breed. Don't forget - you heard it here first.

[Irish Stamp]

Think the whole thoroughbred breeding industry needs a few more lesser distance races.
Flat breeding whether we like it or not is heavily inbred, more so IMO than the jumps racing. With inbreeding comes certain genetic traits such as low red blood cell count and smaller trachea (windpipe) which enables the horse to run faster but over a shorter period of time.
Eventually if the pattern race system stays as it is the best horse's will be contesting the 6-10f races whilst the 12f races will primarily be won by 10f horses going the extra 2f because they are forced to not because they stay - such horses will run fewer races etc.

Martin

[Venusian]

Irish Stamp, there is probably less inbreeding practised by thoroughbred breeders today than in the past. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you go back over the last 200 years, the further you go back, the more inbreeding there seems to have been.

The breeder who most recently dabbled in close inbreeding was Marcel Boussac during the 40s and 50s, who was keen on close-up duplications of Tourbillon, France's best-ever stallion. His horses seemed to stay all right!

You say "With inbreeding comes certain genetic traits such as low red blood cell count and smaller trachea...". Do you have any evidence to support this? And, in any case, I don't see how these defects, however caused, can enable a horse to run faster over shorter distances. I'd have thought it would result in a horse running slower over shorter distances!

[Irish Stamp]

Venusian most of what i have put is from reading up on the subject and of articles in various horse magazines - H+H, Pacemaker, Blood Horse, TT etc. and books (most of which are pretty old - pre 1990) so indeed it could all be outdated information.
I used the wrong language - what i meant to say was that they couldn't run over such distances as 12-14f when immature - eg. less than 4 or 5 years old.
Some would argue that the St. Leger is an example of a race losing prestige due to breeding, not just due to its location in relation to the Arc which has always been the premier 12f race on the continent.

Martin

[Venusian]

Fair enough IS, I misread/understood your wording.

But I still think you're wrong!

One aspect I do agree with, up to a point, is that it can be more difficult for young stayers these days inasmuch as races tend to be run at a much truer pace than in the past. For example, I'm pretty certain that, in its prime, the old Grand Prix de Paris (run over 3000m) was run with a more sedate early pace than would be the case today.

[Irish Stamp]

Think my wording was way out.
Fair enough about thinking i'm wrong but in the same way as we have altered the GP De Paris the US have changed the distance of the Jockey Club Gold Cup from 2m to 10f, which IMO has been a huge success. Their is now to the best of my knowledge only one 13f+ Graded stakes event in the USA (San Juan Capistrano Invitational at around 14f). Such a bias in terms of scheduling resulted from breeders wanting to breed Secretariat again but the Belmont remains at 12f - i'm pretty sure there'd have been at least 2 Triple Crown winners (Charismatic and Smarty Jones) had the race been shortened to 10f.
All in all its swings and roundabouts and the race schedule meets demand for races, if the race isn't attracting a high enough class of horse it is either altered a bit or is downgraded.

Martin

[Triptych]

The Italian Oaks has now been reduced in distance from 11 furlongs to 10 and has also dropped from a Group 1 to a Group 2. Not as significant a move as reducing the French Derby distance but yet another step along that same path.