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Thread: The Fox-hunting Debate - Some Sense

  1. #1
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    I have entered the fox-hunting debate twice on these forums, the first time when we were on Channel 4's forum and the second time on one of our own incarnations. I have always mentioned that I am ambivalent on the subject, that I have friends (and close relatives&#33 on both sides and that I have no love at all for the extreme fundamentalists in either of the camps. Today, for the first time, I read an article that is closest to my opinion on everything surrounding the issue and it is by Tony Wright, who is the Labour MP for Cannock Chase and Chairman of the Public Administration Select Committee.

    This is the worst form of hypocrisy

    It would be madness for us to die in the ditch for a ban on hunting

    Tony Wright
    Tuesday October 12, 2004
    The Guardian

    How on earth did we get into this mess? It is difficult for many of us to get very worked up about foxhunting, but it is easy to get worked up about the idiocy that has brought us to where we are now.

    It was obvious from the start that it would end badly. The loss of proportion is staggering. Whatever progressive politics is about, or worth taking on opposing interests for, it is not about views on alternative methods of pest control. Talk of invoking the Parliament Act is like declaring a state of emergency because of a patch of fog on the M4.

    I dislike the idea of blood sports. Some of the people who engage in them seem especially unlovely. Unseating the toffocracy is appealing. The trouble comes when we start converting personal prejudices into state action. Not only do we stir up all sorts of unnecessary trouble, we wander into a bog of hypocrisies, inconsistencies and contradictions.

    Many of my colleagues have a passion for the issue that is in inverse proportion to its significance. Others have allowed themselves to be imprisoned by pressure groups. Some (including Tony Blair and most of the cabinet, I suspect) would just like it to go away.

    It is the last stand of a kind of gesture politics that Labour has taken much trouble to banish on other fronts. The alarm bells first rang for me a few years ago when a packed meeting of Labour MPs howled down the suggestion of an independent inquiry on the issue. The government did set up an inquiry, but it need not have bothered. Minds were already made up.

    A similar fate awaited the elaborate hearings conducted by poor Alun Michael. The compromise bill he constructed was dead even before it reached the Commons. It was a triumph for deaf absolutism.

    Hunting is cruel, but so are the alternatives. That was the Burns report finding. A sensible fox, asked to state a preference between being hunted, shot, snared or gassed, would tick the "none of the above" box. A further finding was that, particularly in upland areas, hunting with dogs is an effective way of controlling fox populations. Yet the House of Commons now seriously proposes to criminalise a farmer in the fells who takes out a pack of hounds to hunt the fox that killed his chickens. As Oscar Wilde might have said, this is the unpersuadable in pursuit of the unpoliceable.

    The fact is that we routinely do unspeakable things to animals; hunting is scarcely up there with our ordinary cruelties. I have just watched a local council pest control officer on television explaining how he kills rats by giving them a poison that stops their blood clotting until they eventually die. I have yet to hear such practices denounced from the Commons benches. If sport is the issue, then why not ban all killing of animals, birds and fish for pleasure? Exchanging substance for symbolism is the worst form of hypocrisy.

    Nor can it be a matter of political and moral sensibility. Robin Cook opposes a ban, Ann Widdicombe supports one. Hitler famously loved animals, but hated Jews. We should at least try to stick to the merits of the issue and avoid the rival moral frenzies. Instead, we have allowed the fundamentalists (on both sides) to take over, with predictable consequences. When this happens, reason and compromise are the first casualties, and we end up with our own homely version of civil war.

    It is being waged in the name of democracy. A majority in the elected house has voted emphatically and repeatedly in favour of a total ban. For some, that is the end of the argument. But this is crude majoritarianism, not liberal democracy. That was previously our complaint against the governing style of Margaret Thatcher - pushing half-baked measures through the Commons, refusing all compromise, simply because she had the majority to do so. A mature liberal democracy should always try to find as much common ground as possible, especially on measures that arouse rival passions and where agreement is necessary to make them work.

    There is no difficulty in constructing a sensible compromise. We could strengthen the laws that outlaw unnecessary animal cruelty, and force hunting to justify itself in relation to them. The Lords would approve it, the hunters would have to put up with it, most people would find it satisfactory, and a small advance for civilisation would have been made.

    An outbreak of sanity is now needed. It would be a final madness for my parliamentary colleagues to prefer to die in the ditch for an unenforceable ban than to secure an achievable, if partial, victory. Having had a good run, it is time for this issue to go to ground.

    wrightt@parliament.uk

  2. #2
    Senior Member trudij's Avatar
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    Do you know - thats the most sensible thing anyone has offered about hunting.....
    #YourStorm
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    I note the constituency, very apt

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    Having only read your opening comments Brian, I would guess that we see this subject from a similar viewpoint.

    My main objection has been towards those who seem to be using this issue for the following quote and not really having any comprehension of fox hunting and what is involved with a ban.

    "Unseating the toffocracy is appealing. The trouble comes when we start converting personal prejudices into state action."


    I've asked a couple of times as to how the fox population should, or can be controlled once hunting with dogs becomes illegal, but nothing has been forthcoming from our learned members.

    "Hunting is cruel, but so are the alternatives. That was the Burns report finding. A sensible fox, asked to state a preference between being hunted, shot, snared or gassed, would tick the "none of the above" box."


    I'm not sure how much notice is going to be taken of this article, but it does make a lot of sense.

  5. #5
    Derek.Burgess
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    Griff,
    if we take the stance that all FOXES are vermin,then any method is ok by me,with one exception.The men and women making it into a day sport should go.

    I am,though a bit concerned about the welfare of the Sheep and the Chickens.Now that they have been saved from an untimely death.Do they now have an uniterrupted life until they die of natural causes?

    BADGERS.
    At the time of writing are on trial for,and are very likely to be found guilty of,passing TB on to the Cow/Bull population. There will,however,be an appeal at the verdict,whatever it is.

    DUCKS.
    Have been culled because they were the wrong breed.

    SQUIRRELS.

    The predominance of Grey over Red has caused concern for a while now.

    The BURNS Report is on my hard drive and he appears to bend backwards not to offend any side of this debate.

    He is not convinced of anything and sites other European countries who use dogs in the pursuit of Hunting.

    We remain,however,almost alone in the use of dogs to kill,in the name of culling.

    Not wishing to enter into a slanging match of any kind,i would like to suggest that one should take a look at how "OTHER" European countries (in general)deal with the culling of the spieces.(i before e or e before i confusing)

    My personal view is that Shooting is the correct way to proceed,with dogs,used to find any injured so that they may be put down as quickly as possible.

  6. #6
    Senior Member simmo's Avatar
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    i before e except after c.

  7. #7
    Derek.Burgess
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    Simmo,
    only bin doin it for 65 years,see it all in it's different forms has made me unsure.

    Happy to know that eye be4 cee innit.

    Ta.

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    Thoroughly agree with the Honourable MP for Cannock Chase - thank you for posting this on the forum Brian - I would otherwise have missed it.
    Just Singin' the Blues ........



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    The predominance of Grey over Red has caused concern for a while now
    Thanks Derek. That is the most illuminating contribution to the fox hunting debate yet. Mindnblowingly concise and relevent.

    I prefer to ask Basil Brush. Either way the fox ends up with a posh fist up it's arse.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

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    Derek,

    Personally, I am not bothered whether foxhunting stays or goes, it's an inefficient way of controlling the fox population, although it does help. My main concern is why the government want to ban it and I feel that it is a 'payback' for years of Conservative support and therefore unacceptable.

    I know what you mean about the 'Hurray Henrys', can't stand them myself and to be honest, they are more out for an unrestricted gallop across someones farmland than actually catching a fox. The local hunt say they caught 130 foxes last year, a slightly optimistic figure in my view. As a family, we have been closely involved with the hunt for years and at one point years ago, my father wired up the gates and access routes to stop these plonkers, as they had little or no respect for the land they were on. These were the new 'townies', not the country people and that's where the main problem lies, a bit of money and 'we are somebody', but over the years education has been a key player here, with this hunt in particular. Like you do, they are tolerated in the hunting and country world, but not especially liked.

    The most effective way to control foxes in my mind is by shooting and by that I mean lamping. I wouldn't agree with your point of shooting accompianied by dogs, that's self defeating.

    Foxes are not such a danger to lambs and chickens as is portrayed, but they will act in the ways defined if given the opportunity.

    Some years ago, I would go out in the evening around lambing time (450 sheep lambed outside, not cushty indoors with a camera like these days) with my cousin and using basic fieldcraft would usually shoot one or two foxes and had as many as six in one evening. It's hard enough getting position with two people, without having the scent of a dog as well. I'm not saying every shot made was a kill, but every effort was made to dispatch a wounded animal and to be honest, there were not many. I see no problem with lamping, but as with many things, it goes hand in hand with responsibility and knowing the ground you are shooting over. I don't support racing around the fields in a pickup firing away, but responsible lamping is quite different and far more effective.

    The fox would and did take newly born lambs, usually from a young or poor mother, but the placenta would be the usual object of focus in most cases. Any lamb taken is a loss in profit, much the same as in any other industry and every effort should be taken to reduce it, surely you can't begrudge the farmer that.

    I like to see foxes around, but as with any animal of territory, they do need control and I am not a supporter of gassing and loathe snares, so see responsible shooting as the only practical alternative.

    Regarding Simmos question on the fate of Point to Pointing, I do't really have too many concernes, in fact I think it will vastly improve the sport. Sure it will take on a different atmosphere to the present format, but I think it will become stronger and more organised and get away from the rip off trade of extortionate admission/little facilities by a number of hunts at present. We will lose a lot of courses, but some will see the financial advantage of renting out the course for a number of meetings to supplement a constricting farming income. Some friends of mine in the West Midlands have a 3 day event course at the PtP track and it seems to be progressing very well and is extremely well supported. So to me, that is the way forward and then perhaps there will be better facilities for the supporters, better prizemoney for the owners and a strong structured amateur sport for everybody.

    I'm concerned about what may be the outcome of the badger trial and they way it is going to be dealt with. My only hope is that the guidelines to deal with the 'perceived' problem will be put together by people who understand the subject. Selection is the primary condition here.

  11. #11
    Derek.Burgess
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    Griff,
    It is nice to read a post minus the baggage.

    If the livestock is being attacked i see no alternative but to shoot the Fox.

    The dog issue,having spoken to Huntsmen in Germany are not used in Fox hunting at all. (used as in the British sense)

    Dogs are used to flush out rabbits or birds.

    Other dogs are used to find the larger animals that have been shot but not killed.

    There is no connection with dogs killing animals at all.

    Otherwise i am in complete agreement with your post.

  12. #12
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    Good balanced post Griff.

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    Dogs are a greater danger to sheep than foxes in my opinion.

    I've seen the carnage that just two dogs can do to a flock of sheep and it's brutal. It's difficult for somebody to believe that their Rover or Shep lay fast asleep by the fire can do such a thing, but when they get loose and pal up with another they can turn into monsters.

    I think it should be compulsary viewing for owners to inspect the damage that their pet mutt has done, because I think many don't believe it possible.


    I don't think a farmer should wait for his stock to be attacked before acting Derek,
    it should be done as a matter of course. The fox population won't be eliminated by shooting, but it would be kept in check and therefore they would feed on their more natural prey. There will always be the opportunist of course, but if there is no struggle for food supply, then the balance will be maintained.

    Flushing/retrieving birds or rabbits requires dogs in many cases, but foxes act differently and I preferred to work without one when lamping. He didn't get his cunning persona for nothing did our Reynard/Basil/Toby or whatever. A smart animal and should be respected as such.

  14. #14
    Derek.Burgess
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    Griff,
    I agree.




  15. #15
    Senior Member trudij's Avatar
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    Grapevine down here has DEFRA officials telling hunt kennels they need to do improvements totalling about £15000 - when told there is no point as they will be banned in 18 months time DEFRA officials say " no you wont - its not going to happen" :brows:
    #YourStorm
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