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Thread: Royal Ascot 2022

  1. #521
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    One of my least favourite things about the sport is when the current discourse, as it is now, is all about Jockeys. I don't give two shits who ride the horses I back, never have.
    These, I think, are unrelated situations.

    Jockeys and horses are as important to each other as football teams and managers. A good one will get the best out of the other.

    The Dettori situation is worth discussing because he has been among the very best in the saddle for a generation of racing fans and he's now making high profile mistakes that are worth dissecting.

    In other news...

    I always check the jockey's record on the horse / for the trainer / at the track before deciding on a bet. It might not stop me betting it but it will almost always make me think.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  2. #522
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    The trainer is way more important to me. Sometimes the horses I back get good rides, sometimes bad - I put that down to variance.

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  4. #523
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    I'm genuinely surprised that Gosden has openly criticised Dettori. I thought he was better than that. Prehaps Jinny J is right but I'm still disappointed.

    I thought Dettori should have won the Oaks on Emily, I thought he made a couple of poor decisions during the race. The incident with the hood seemed to get to Dettori more than it should have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin View Post
    I'm genuinely surprised that Gosden has openly criticised Dettori. I thought he was better than that. Prehaps Jinny J is right but I'm still disappointed.

    I thought Dettori should have won the Oaks on Emily, I thought he made a couple of poor decisions during the race. The incident with the hood seemed to get to Dettori more than it should have.
    I don't think this issue is about Gosden being a bad person, Col.

    He is answerable to owners. I suspect this is what might have enhanced the problem.

    If these were mickey mouse races around Catterick Gosden wouldn't have critisized him.

    The races in question are the creme de la creme of the sport.

    I feel sorry for Frankie, but the best thing he can do now is bite the bullet, take it on the chin, stay as humble as possible and see what rides he can get going forward.

    Moaning, whinging and sour grapes won't get him any extra rides.

    Proving he is not a liability will...
    Last edited by Marb; 24th June 2022 at 11:53 AM.

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  8. #525
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    Sometimes the horses I back get good rides, sometimes bad - I put that down to variance.
    Yes, but if the horse is seriously targeting a race the chances of him employing a duff jockey are pretty thin. If he lets his usual jockeys away to ride elsewhere the chances are the horse isn't going to run its race, I reckon. I also reckon I'll avoid a very high percentage of losers avoiding horses with such jockey bookings. (Speaking from experience.)
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  9. #526
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    According to the RP they are having a meeting today to determine the future. JG seriously peed off about him missing the week before Ascot (and crucial last work outs) to go to a wedding in Italy following by more time off after Ascot to go on holiday in Sardinia.
    A friend in racing inferred that FD was back partaking in his previous habit. No idea how true that is.
    tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

  10. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnyj View Post
    According to the RP they are having a meeting today to determine the future. JG seriously peed off about him missing the week before Ascot (and crucial last work outs) to go to a wedding in Italy following by more time off after Ascot to go on holiday in Sardinia.
    A friend in racing inferred that FD was back partaking in his previous habit. No idea how true that is.
    Regardless of allegations like that, I don't think Golden should be as publically critical as he has been - they are supposed to be a team and it is very poor man management and in my opinion doesn't reflect well on him.

    Not to mention appearing to jock Dettori off rides without even bothering to tell him.

    But hard to know the truth of it all as we are really only hearing parts of the story.
    "The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do to their fellows, because it always coincides
    with their own desires" -- Susan B. Anthony

  11. #528
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnyj View Post
    A friend in racing inferred that FD was back partaking in his previous habit. No idea how true that is.
    Surely he'd fail tests?

    Surely he'd have seen what happened to Oisin Murphy?

    Surely he couldn't be that stupid (or desperate)?

    I'd be hugely sorry for him if that were to happen. I know he's an annoying wee shite but he's been brilliant for the sport.
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  12. #529
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Clearly it should have been dealt with privately. Obviously more to it than just losing some races he could have won.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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    Not winning a Royal Ascot race for HRH this jubilee year may have delayed John G's knighthood.
    We all yearn a little immortality , and Johnny G is no different methinks.

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    It's called respect. Irrespective of what John Gosden thinks about Frankie he should handle his business behind closed doors.

    Frankie may or may not have overstepped a mark recently. If he did we don't know for certain what it was he did.

    We do know for certain that he had a couple of shockers at Ascot though, and whether or not there is other business that Gosden thinks affected that, he's the one that comes out looking poor because of the way he handled himself.

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  16. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Surely he'd fail tests?

    Surely he'd have seen what happened to Oisin Murphy?

    Surely he couldn't be that stupid (or desperate)?

    I'd be hugely sorry for him if that were to happen. I know he's an annoying wee shite but he's been brilliant for the sport.
    If he keeps going on holiday, he won't be being tested and will have enough time to get it out of his system when he is back. I wouldn't be surprised one bit, he's been caught 3 times, how many times has he been lucky and not been caught? Even if not a regular ish habit? Others have been caught once and lost their careers over it, he's been extremely fortunate.

    As Jinnyj says, a lot of the time his attitude stinks, and has for years. The difference is now more and more people are witnessing it, as he really thinks he can turn up when he likes as he likes and has a job. I feel sorry for Havlin as he does all the graft and FD gets all the glory. JG wouldn't employ him, Havlin, if he didn't rate him, he could have his pick of 'second' jockeys, so think very unfair to dismiss him as a bad jockey. He can't be that bad for one when he consistently 'hands' over progressive/unbeaten animals for the 'big' races for one.
    FD's had it too easy for a while now, thinks the odd flying dismount and giggling at the camera will be enough. When doing things such as the Morning Line, he always looks as if he'd rather be somewhere else, and adds as much as someone who is.

    I used to work for someone who employed him , and the rest of the staff in my section universally couldn't stand him , or rated him.

    If the trainer has a microphone shoved in front of him immediately after the race and are clearly disappointed, especially if that was the penultimate race for Stradivarius , very very hard to say 'oh well never mind' and why shouldn't he be honest? If he had have said 'oh dear never mind' what would Dettori's view of the race have been? They obviously had spoken as camera with the winner, Ollie doing his 'sorry to interrupt' but isn't routine in the winners' enclosure. I bet a multi pack of curly wurlies that NO way would it have been as it was. He, FD, had nowhere to go knowing JG was peed off, so no way is he going to come out with the opposite analysis of events to the trainer. That would have really made him look as if the same old excuses were being trotted out, and none of it was his fault, but still the ' we got shuffled back' came out - well don't get in the position to be shuffled back Frankie. You do that not the horse. Along with the 'his legs aren't what they were' ... on the list of stock responses he has.

    Even if it had been dealt with privately, the minute declarations out and he's not on JGs' horses, the story would have started.
    In the days of Fallon, Kinane etc not so much media - there was no Sky/ATR/RUK so less airtime to fill. The advent of cable channels/online has pushed the need to fill airtime with something, seemingly at the expense of actually showing the animals, albeit a lot of it informative and entertaining on occasions.

    I'm sure it will all blow over and they'll kiss and make up before too long though. Only a month to the KG...EU has to turn up for that surely?
    Vote Alfie!!!!

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  18. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truncheon View Post
    Havlin is mainly there to educate the 2yr olds and rarely gets a big race ride

    This split has been brewing for 12 months

    The ride on Stradivarius in last years Gold Cup
    Palace Pier in the QEII
    Emily Upjohn in the Oaks
    And the Royal Ascot **** ups last week

    His ride on Pyledriver in the Sheema Classic was appalling. A gap appeared at the perfect moment and he hesitated....

    He should be riding with an allowance, he's gone at the game...

  19. #534
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-G View Post
    If he keeps going on holiday, he won't be being tested and will have enough time to get it out of his system when he is back.
    I thought they had tests that detected 'stuff' for months after it had been taken?

    If such a rumour can make it here, surely it will already have made it to the authorities' security department and a hair sample could be analysed. (Or they could send one off to France.)
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 24th June 2022 at 7:22 PM.
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  20. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-G View Post
    If he keeps going on holiday, he won't be being tested and will have enough time to get it out of his system when he is back. I wouldn't be surprised one bit, he's been caught 3 times, how many times has he been lucky and not been caught? Even if not a regular ish habit? Others have been caught once and lost their careers over it, he's been extremely fortunate.

    As Jinnyj says, a lot of the time his attitude stinks, and has for years. The difference is now more and more people are witnessing it, as he really thinks he can turn up when he likes as he likes and has a job. I feel sorry for Havlin as he does all the graft and FD gets all the glory. JG wouldn't employ him, Havlin, if he didn't rate him, he could have his pick of 'second' jockeys, so think very unfair to dismiss him as a bad jockey. He can't be that bad for one when he consistently 'hands' over progressive/unbeaten animals for the 'big' races for one.
    FD's had it too easy for a while now, thinks the odd flying dismount and giggling at the camera will be enough. When doing things such as the Morning Line, he always looks as if he'd rather be somewhere else, and adds as much as someone who is.

    I used to work for someone who employed him , and the rest of the staff in my section universally couldn't stand him , or rated him.

    If the trainer has a microphone shoved in front of him immediately after the race and are clearly disappointed, especially if that was the penultimate race for Stradivarius , very very hard to say 'oh well never mind' and why shouldn't he be honest? If he had have said 'oh dear never mind' what would Dettori's view of the race have been? They obviously had spoken as camera with the winner, Ollie doing his 'sorry to interrupt' but isn't routine in the winners' enclosure. I bet a multi pack of curly wurlies that NO way would it have been as it was. He, FD, had nowhere to go knowing JG was peed off, so no way is he going to come out with the opposite analysis of events to the trainer. That would have really made him look as if the same old excuses were being trotted out, and none of it was his fault, but still the ' we got shuffled back' came out - well don't get in the position to be shuffled back Frankie. You do that not the horse. Along with the 'his legs aren't what they were' ... on the list of stock responses he has.

    Even if it had been dealt with privately, the minute declarations out and he's not on JGs' horses, the story would have started.
    In the days of Fallon, Kinane etc not so much media - there was no Sky/ATR/RUK so less airtime to fill. The advent of cable channels/online has pushed the need to fill airtime with something, seemingly at the expense of actually showing the animals, albeit a lot of it informative and entertaining on occasions.

    I'm sure it will all blow over and they'll kiss and make up before too long though. Only a month to the KG...EU has to turn up for that surely?
    I understand and agree with just about everything you say........Nice to see someone thinking before they post for a change
    Formely Fist of Fury

  21. #536
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    So Gosden criticised Gianfranco in public, so what?

    Todays newspaper is tomorrows toilet roll.

    Public criticism eh...can you imagine being Boris Johnson at the moment...
    Last edited by Marb; 24th June 2022 at 8:07 PM.

  22. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    Imagine one of the best jockeys of all time having to go out like this because a **** horse like Stradivarius got beat twice at Ascot.
    There's none so blind as he who will not see!

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  24. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    There's none so blind as he who will not see!
    He's riding below average right now but this is insanity. He wouldn't have won that Gold Cup and time will prove that.

  25. #540
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    He's riding below average right now but this is insanity. He wouldn't have won that Gold Cup and time will prove that.
    Silly post. Time is on his side.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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