Tingle Creek Chase Sandown Park Sat Dec 4th 2021

[Grasshopper]

WLook at how many canters round Douvan or Hurricane Fly had in nothing races and missed out on tougher options at UK tracks.

Genuinely hilarious, this.

Firstly, in what Universe would it make sense for Hurricane Fly to travel to the UK to contest a Grade 2, rather than run in a Grade 1 run in his own back yard? Answer = none.

Secondly, only a complete whacko would suggest this is remotely the same scenario as Shishkin swerving a Grade 1 (being run in his own back yard), in favour of..........nothing, other than staying in his barn staring at a bale of fu*cking hay.

The entire post is incoherent drivel, and I'm personally prepared to put it down to Fist mixing up his vitamin tablets with his Viagra.

PS. For the record, The New One was winning those Grade 2 International Hurdles, whilst Hurricane was winning the Grade 1 Morgiana Hurdles "Tougher options", my hole.

[ep1987]

Mullins sent Huricane Fly out to win the Morgiana at long odds on twice at 1/16 fav in one of them when he could have sent him over for the much tougher International Hurdle worth twice as much.

If we are being honest we all seen what happened when Kauto Star when ON overdid it and sent him to Ascot 110% where he hacked up then lost to Denman and prompted Ruby to say he was all wrong at Cheltenham and he felt he had left his race at Ascot.

I said it once and I'll say it again "It is all about Cheltenham" stuff the Tingle Creek it is totally unimportant whether he runs there or in the Desert Orchid or the Schloer Chase.

What's important as he has the easiest race possible to improve his chances of winning the QMCC.

1. The International hurdle meant having to travel for £75k whereas the Morgiana + Leopardstown at Xmas was worth £90k and made for a more coherent season long campaign.

2. We're talking about swerving a race in early December, not one in the middle of February.

3. Even if placing Cheltenham above all else made perfect sense it's still detrimental to the sport. But there is a genuine argument that 2 runs in easy races isn't the ideal prep, plus if the horse can't run in March or turns out not to be quite good enough then chances at winning big races with good prize money were unnecessarily wasted by deciding to leave the horse in it's box.

[wilsonl]

Really good piece from Lydia that, which in the main, I've come to expect.

[Tanlic]

1. The International hurdle meant having to travel for £75k whereas the Morgiana + Leopardstown at Xmas was worth £90k and made for a more coherent season long campaign.

Exactly how far do you want to move the goalpost to come out in front in the debate. How about we add the International and Christmas Hurdle together? The New one just failed to win both for about 130,000 pounds not Euro.

Hurricane Fly was his superior and he could have won both or maybe WPM was scared My head is reeling at the stupidity of people saying Nicky Henderson has no bottle....The man has won close on 100 major NH races to date and pussies don't do that by hiding in the bushes

[Grasshopper]

What are you blabbering about, Fist.

Give me one good reason why Hurricane Fly should have crossed the water to contest a Grade 2 with less prize-money, rather than stay at home to contest a Grade 1 for more prize-money?

One good reason is all I'm after.........none off this "maybe he was scared" shite.

[Tanlic]

Don't have a reason mate was giving an example on why trainers avoid tough races on the way to Cheltenham if they can.

You should know by now mate I check these things before spouting shyte

StanJames.com Morgiana Hurdle (Grade 1) November 2013
(4yo+) 2m Yielding 9 hurdles
1st €48,000 2nd €15,200 3rd €7,200 4th €2,400 5th €1,60 won by Hurricane Fly

StanJames.com International Hurdle (Grade 2) 14th December 2013
(Class 1) (4yo+) (2m179yds) 2m1f New Good 8 hurdles
1st £74,035 2nd £27,781 3rd £13,910 4th £6,929 5th £3,484 6th £1,742 Won by The New One

The prize money was the same in 2014 despite it being a Grade 1

[G-G]

If the horse isn't 100% then it is in everyone's best interests not to run.

However, Hendo is not averse to running them less than 100% fit (as opposed to less than 100% healthy), as evidenced by some of his big handicap winners ahead of their targets.

The big Irish trainers think nothing of their horses not winning every time, even at the highest level.

Hendo's apparent obsession with preserving unbeaten records is what baffles me. It's not like the horses' stud careers are going to be affected. Their only value beyond sentiment is in the insurance money.

I'd be surprised if many, if any, national hunt horses are insured, the cost is ridiculous even for people with money.

Not sure about the comment re 'work him on grass'? I thought the 'Bowl' was open on Lambourn gallops? ( I'm sure that is it's proper name but that's what I have been told it's called) The ground is more than able to stand up to some work on grass considering the weather we've had, and a big surprise that he can't sway to be allowed if not open, although appreciate shouldn't be one rule for one, one rule for others.

I'm a little surprised he's pulled him so soon as well. Could have given an update to say 'we're not sure, he didn't feel, we'll re-assess on'. Last year BBB was aiming for a race on the Thursday at Cheltenham Festival, with the Saturday /Tuesday decs in place; Saturday doesn't get entered, I enquire - told 'he's a bit quiet for him'. MMm I say having seen and heard great work reports 2 days before. 'But we're going to go to Kelso week Monday'. What?? What?? So you think he's not right to run Thursday in 6 days day but you think he will be in 9? Where he'll have top weight - again -on ground he hates - again. I couldn't understand why they didn't declare on the Saturday, see how he was on the Tuesday and then decide ( not a case of entry money, main owner loaded and splits costs anyway ), and even then could declared on the Tuesday and still not run him. I told a trainer about this and he just didn't get it either. He would have gone with my thinking as long as nothing actually wrong with BBB, which there wasn't. So he ran at Kelso, giving a stone, gets beaten 1 1/4 lengths in a totally meaningless race. ( I know he's not a superstar but have to try and progress in career instead of running at same level all the time with top weight. )

Ten days away, anything could happen, no guarantee anyone turns up.

[Beef or Salmon]

Don't have a reason mate was giving an example on why trainers avoid tough races on the way to Cheltenham if they can.

You should know by now mate I check these things before spouting shyte

StanJames.com Morgiana Hurdle (Grade 1) November 2013
(4yo+) 2m Yielding 9 hurdles
1st €48,000 2nd €15,200 3rd €7,200 4th €2,400 5th €1,60 won by Hurricane Fly

StanJames.com International Hurdle (Grade 2) 14th December 2013
(Class 1) (4yo+) (2m179yds) 2m1f New Good 8 hurdles
1st £74,035 2nd £27,781 3rd £13,910 4th £6,929 5th £3,484 6th £1,742 Won by The New One

The prize money was the same in 2014 despite it being a Grade 1

What point exactly are you even trying to make, I genuinely have no fcuking clue. Are you in all seriousness using a horse who ran in 30 Grade ones for Mullins, winning 22 grade ones as an example of conservative campaigning, I mean if this is a hoax or an elaborate troll then bravo, otherwise give your head a wobble!

[Grasshopper]

A technical detail re the prize-money, Fist, but all other points stand - especially the bit about tougher options in the UK.

Another reason why Hurricane Fly went to Punchestown for the Morgiana was the timing of the race; being around 6-7 week before the December Hurdle at Leopardstown. The Bula/International is run only two weeks before Xmas, and would never have suited from that perspective.

[ep1987]

My head is reeling at the stupidity of people saying Nicky Henderson has no bottle....The man has won close on 100 major NH races to date and pussies don't do that by hiding in the bushes

Henderson seems more anxious than most to avoid getting horses beaten. He also prefers an easier campaign prior to Cheltenham. This is his prerogative and while it's disappointing for NH racing no-one is blaming him exclusively. If he was honest about this then people would have less of a problem but instead he's publicly bullish until later changing his mind and giving a spurious excuse. This disappoints fans and infuriates punters.

Of course you could say it's predictable and 'fool me once' etc. but with Shishkin being a young horse, who has never really been tested over fences but is still a very short price for the QMCC then this withdrawal is the most surprising yet. Especially as the timing of the Tingle Creek leads nicely into the Victor Chandler at Ascot, leaving plenty of time before March.

[wilsonl]

Nicky Henderson has hit back at critics of his decision to rule Shishkin out of his intended reappearance in the Betfair Tingle Creek Chase next Saturday and insists there would be no point in running his star unless he could run a "proper race".

Last season's runaway Arkle winner had been expected to make his return in the Sandown Grade 1 next weekend when he would have been set to come against either Chacun Pour Soi, Energumene or Allaho from Willie Mullins' yard, but Henderson announced on Wednesday he would bypass the race as he felt Shishkin was not ready for that assignment.

The decision sparked strong debate among media professionals and on social media, but the Seven Barrows trainer defended his decision on the Racing Post's What A Shout as he believes the exciting seven-year-old would not have been able to do himself justice at the Esher track.

'I feel he's not quite there' – Shishkin ruled out of Tingle Creek comeback

"We get to expect that [backlash]. It doesn't matter how you do it, when you do it. We just figured that it would be easier to make the decision now, let everybody have as much notice as possible. If you leave it to the last minute, you've done it too late," he said.

"Whenever you do it, you're wrong. How can you be wrong? I'm not happy with the horse. If I'm not happy with him, he isn't going to run, simply because he won't run a proper race. What is the point of running him?

"He's had a few issues. He started a bit late because he needed a wind operation and I think we've possibly had to just push a little bit. The ground hasn't helped us either. We weren't happy with his tracheal wash on Monday. It was just a bit murky, a bit of mucus – that is telling us everything."

Henderson received similar criticism last year when he pulled Altior out of the Tingle Creek at the last minute on account of the ground and while he said he was determined to run Joe and Marie Donnelly's star this time, the trainer was frustrated with the response to his decision once again.

"His work was all right but it's not what he's capable of. He's not there yet and you can't push these things. It's like trying to make a rose come out on Christmas Day and it does bug me," he added.

"The only thing that gets me is people who write things who blatantly – absolutely blatantly – know nothing about horses. I invite them to come down and spend a day with us, they'll go home and write a very, very different story, because they just don't understand what happens.

"If a horse isn't 100 per cent, what on earth is the point of running them in a Grade 1 race at this time of the year? It's a long season ahead. I want to run and so does he, I expect, but I'm not happy with him and Nico [de Boinville] wasn't happy with him, so you can't."

Shishkin remains the 7-4 favourite with Betfair and Paddy Power for the Betway Queen Mother Champion Chase at the Cheltenham Festival – the shortest price of any British runners for the four main championship races – and is expected to make his comeback in the Ladbrokes Desert Orchid Chase at Kempton on December 27.

[reet hard]

The only thing that gets me is people who write things who blatantly – absolutely blatantly – know nothing about horses.

It's the old,old story - oft perpetuated on this forum - that outsiders know better than the trainer, but they're very rarely on the ball.

[Marb]

It's the old,old story - oft perpetuated on this forum - that outsiders know better than the trainer, but they're very rarely on the ball.

I don't pretend to know more than Nicky Henderson. However, I feel it's the pattern we have seen in recent times that is making this hard for racing fans to swallow. He's just got an awful lot of history with this sort of stuff now.

[Grasshopper]

It's the old,old story - oft perpetuated on this forum - that outsiders know better than the trainer, but they're very rarely on the ball.

It's actually a different old, old story, reet; namely the one where Henderson says the horse is "Ready to roll" out one side of his mouth, only to say "He came in late, I've had to rush, the ground has held us up" out of the other side of his mouth, a handful of days later.

He is full of sh*it.

[Beef or Salmon]

It's the old,old story - oft perpetuated on this forum - that outsiders know better than the trainer, but they're very rarely on the ball.

The ability to spot a bullshitter who has complete contempt for the racing public has very little to do with knowing better than the trainer.

[viking]

The ability to spot a bullshitter who has complete contempt for the racing public has very little to do with knowing better than the trainer.

This. I don’t think anyone is questioning Nicky’s training ability or phenomenal success historically Nor is his judgment being questioned

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tanlic]

What point exactly are you even trying to make, I genuinely have no fcuking clue. Are you in all seriousness using a horse who ran in 30 Grade ones for Mullins, winning 22 grade ones as an example of conservative campaigning, I mean if this is a hoax or an elaborate troll then bravo, otherwise give your head a wobble!

Bliss spring to mind...........

[Tanlic]

It's actually a different old, old story, reet; namely the one where Henderson says the horse is "Ready to roll" out one side of his mouth, only to say "He came in late, I've had to rush, the ground has held us up" out of the other side of his mouth, a handful of days later.

He is full of sh*it.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1463494862251175938 read it and weep Grassy

[Beef or Salmon]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1463494862251175938 read it and weep Grassy

Mick Fitz defending Henderson, wow thats a turn up for the books! I know I'm convinced wobble wobble

[Grasshopper]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1463494862251175938 read it and weep Grassy

Well that’s that then.

Seriously, Fist. If the best you can offer in terms of a ‘conclusive argument’ is what Fitzgerald has to say on the matter, you should know you’ve already lost.