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Thread: Breeding Question.

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    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
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    Breeding Question.

    Help needed from experts. You know who you are.

    When St Marks Basilica goes to stud - his dam is by Galileo - is he to close in perdigree to be mated with Galieo mares?

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    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

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    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    No expert but if you look at Galileo's page on the RP and check his best fillies, the likes of Misty for Me and Together have had between them 12 or so foals and none of them are by Galileo sires.

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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by an capall View Post
    When St Marks Basilica goes to stud - his dam is by Galileo - is he to close in perdigree to be mated with Galieo mares?
    It's okay for the royal family so horses shouldn't be a problem.
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    Too close for Galileo fillies ideally as a 3x2 cross is usually a generation too close and may throw some issues that will affect fertility or behavioural problems down the road.

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    Enable is inbred 3X 2 to Saddler's Wells, so it's not out of the question and will be tried. Historically the greatest proponent of close in-breeding was Marcel Boussac. If you can find an article on him it may be worth reading. His Arc winner Coronation was inbred 2 x 2 to Tourbillon.

    You can look on Wikipedia and I found this https://www.not606.com/threads/bouss.../#post-8543541

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    There was a question mark over a lot of the French raiders post WW2 in England; they had huge success but allegations of doping were ripe at the time.
    These horses were usually sweaty, wired and spirited in and out before too many questions could be asked.
    Boussac banned cattle off his stud farms after some horse was gored by a horned animal and the farms became horse sick as a result.
    20 French Derby winners bred by him, none by me so I cannot justifiably over criticise him or his breeding practices !
    A thought ; imagine how sweaty a 2x2 or 3x2 bred Galileo will look in the parade ring.

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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgt View Post
    There was a question mark over a lot of the French raiders post WW2 in England; they had huge success but allegations of doping were ripe at the time.
    These horses were usually sweaty, wired and spirited in and out before too many questions could be asked.
    I think doping at that time is highly likely.

    My local bookie (now retired) used to regale me with stories of his cycling days - he competed in the Tours - in the '60s. He said all the continentals, especially the French, were doped and that it was common knowledge but no-one could ever prove it.

    And - something I've repeated on here a number of times - in an episode of Blue Peter, Fatima Whitbread was extolling the virtues of anabolic steroids and how they were helping her get the top of the rankings. (This was before they were banned.) I reckon it's reasonable to assume that many athletes at that time were being 'helped'.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 9th September 2021 at 8:12 AM.
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    The depth of knowledge about racehorses on here is incredible.

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    Do I get a hint of sarcasm there, Tout?
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    Senior Member Grey's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's necessary to reach for dark theories to explain the French successes in England in the immediate post-war years.

    There was a general dip in levels of British sporting prowess at the time. This was the era when Vincent O'Brien dominated Cheltenham and Aintree with Cottage Rake, Hatton's Grace, Carey's Cottage et al. The Irish rugby team were able to win their first ever triple crown in 1947 and another in 1948. The ROI soccer team did the unthinkable and beat England 2-0 in 1949 at Goodison Park.

    There was a general shortage of nutrition in Britain, and rationing continued for years after the war was over. The best present anyone could bring from Ireland or elsewhere was food, even simple stuff like rashers and eggs, and food parcels were frequently sent across to expat families. I doubt British athletes of the time, whether human or equine, were as well fed in their formative years as their counterparts in neighbouring countries had been.

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    I’ve been following a Facebook page about the wild mustangs in America that are sadly being rounded up by helicopter and family groups are being split up. I don’t know what their actual fate is (find it very upsetting). But one horse, a very famous mustang called Picasso had a foal with one of his mares that died soon after birth. It was pure white and seemed to have a genetic problem. He never mated with that mare again. So, in the wild, would mares and stallions instinctively know which horses they should breed with? The first thing I thought when I read about it was the breeding of thoroughbreds. And we all know about those unplanned foals that turned out to be champion racehorses.

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    One fact is that although the Boussac empire collapsed that a few generations on those families produced the likes of Darshaan, Estimate, Dalakhani and Almanzor, amongst others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    I don't know if it's necessary to reach for dark theories to explain the French successes in England in the immediate post-war years.

    There was a general dip in levels of British sporting prowess at the time. This was the era when Vincent O'Brien dominated Cheltenham and Aintree with Cottage Rake, Hatton's Grace, Carey's Cottage et al. The Irish rugby team were able to win their first ever triple crown in 1947 and another in 1948. The ROI soccer team did the unthinkable and beat England 2-0 in 1949 at Goodison Park.

    There was a general shortage of nutrition in Britain, and rationing continued for years after the war was over. The best present anyone could bring from Ireland or elsewhere was food, even simple stuff like rashers and eggs, and food parcels were frequently sent across to expat families. I doubt British athletes of the time, whether human or equine, were as well fed in their formative years as their counterparts in neighbouring countries had been.
    True and a lot of sires were lost to us.

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    St Mark's Basilica's fee for 2022 set at 65000 Euro.
    This is mainly thanks to Ryan Moore taking Tarnawa out to the carpark in Irish Champion Stakes.
    Had he not done so and been defeated the fee would be 35000, taking 30,000,000 off the horse's notional value.
    Would Ryan have been worried about a 7 day suspension, even a 7 week one ?
    The price of success vs the cost of failure ; Australia's Irish Champion defeat cost that much.
    No wonder Joseph got the chop shortly after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgt View Post
    St Mark's Basilica's fee for 2022 set at 65000 Euro.
    This is mainly thanks to Ryan Moore taking Tarnawa out to the carpark in Irish Champion Stakes.
    Had he not done so and been defeated the fee would be 35000, taking 30,000,000 off the horse's notional value.
    Would Ryan have been worried about a 7 day suspension, even a 7 week one ?
    The price of success vs the cost of failure ; Australia's Irish Champion defeat cost that much.
    No wonder Joseph got the chop shortly after.
    What's Walk In The Park coming in at Ed?
    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgt View Post
    St Mark's Basilica's fee for 2022 set at 65000 Euro.
    This is mainly thanks to Ryan Moore taking Tarnawa out to the carpark in Irish Champion Stakes.
    Had he not done so and been defeated the fee would be 35000, taking 30,000,000 off the horse's notional value.
    Would Ryan have been worried about a 7 day suspension, even a 7 week one ?
    The price of success vs the cost of failure ;
    Now, if I had written that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by edgt View Post
    St Mark's Basilica's fee for 2022 set at 65000 Euro.
    This is mainly thanks to Ryan Moore taking Tarnawa out to the carpark in Irish Champion Stakes.
    Had he not done so and been defeated the fee would be 35000, taking 30,000,000 off the horse's notional value.
    Would Ryan have been worried about a 7 day suspension, even a 7 week one ?
    The price of success vs the cost of failure ; Australia's Irish Champion defeat cost that much.
    No wonder Joseph got the chop shortly after.
    To digress slightly, Camelot fetches €75,000. I wondered what it would have been if he had managed to overhaul Encke and undoubtedly been retired to stud there and then as an undefeated triple crown winner.
    Alcohol, because no good story ever started with "I was eating this salad..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by granger View Post
    What's Walk In The Park coming in at Ed?
    If it's any help, we enquired a couple of months ago and were told that it hadn't been finalised but was expected to be between 15000 and 20000 euro.
    The older I get the better I was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonl View Post
    To digress slightly, Camelot fetches €75,000. I wondered what it would have been if he had managed to overhaul Encke and undoubtedly been retired to stud there and then as an undefeated triple crown winner.
    Mght well have been, had Joseph not misjudged the pace, as he had in the Guineas, too.

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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonl View Post
    To digress slightly, Camelot fetches €75,000. I wondered what it would have been if he had managed to overhaul Encke and undoubtedly been retired to stud there and then as an undefeated triple crown winner.
    Wasn't there some kind of doping controversy around Encke or his trainer?

    Has Camelot been any good as a sire?
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