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Thread: Envoi Allen

  1. #21
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    I actually had Shishkin down as more of a Ballymore horse (though had backed him for both novice races) before the Festival, tbh, and was just as pessimistic as you 6f out in the Supreme.

    To this day, I still say Newbury was more of a staying peformance than a turn-of-foot 2-mile performance, and the way he clawed back the ground in the Supreme, hasn’t done a whole lot to dent that view. It might be the case that both horses are/were classy enough to win G1s at 2m when actually wanting further.

    Crab Shishkin’s Kempton form if you want, but novices have to start somewhere, and only a fool would suggest that Envoi Allen duffing-up the 128-rated hurdler January Jets in his maiden chase, was the extent of his talent or ambition over fences.

    You are clearly an Envoi Allen super-fan. That sits OK with me, as I’ve been there before with Hurricane Fly. But, much as I did with the Fly, if you make assertions that are largely based on faith/expectation, and open to some interpretation formwise, it’s only reasonable that you can expect others to take a contrary - or perhaps slightly less rosy - view.

    The simple fact is that saying Envoi Allen would beat Shishkin over 2m can’t be backed-up with any objective measure, other than the relative results against Abacadbras.....which makes them close enough as to be arguable either way, depending on which ‘camp’ you happen to be in.

    Better we just celebrate both horses, hope they fulfil their full potential, and that they meet one day in a competitve scenario over fences.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 29th November 2020 at 9:46 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    I actually had Shishkin down as more of a Ballymore horse (though had backed him for both novice races) before the Festival, tbh, and was just as pessimistic as you 6f out in the Supreme.

    To this day, I still say Newbury was more of a staying peformance than a turn-of-foot 2-mile performance, and the way he clawed back the ground in the Supreme, hasn’t done a whole lot to dent that view. It might be the case that both horses are/were classy enough to win G1s at 2m when actually wanting further.

    Crab Shishkin’s Kempton form if you want, but novices have to start somewhere, and only a fool would suggest that Envoi Allen duffing-up the 128-rated hurdler January Jets in his maiden chase, was the extent of his talent or ambition over fences.

    You are clearly an Envoi Allen super-fan. That sits OK with me, as I’ve been there before with Hurricane Fly. But, much as I did with the Fly, if you make assertions that are largely based on faith/expectation, and open to some interpretation formwise, it’s only reasonable that you can expect others to take a contrary - or perhaps slightly less rosy - view.

    The simple fact is that saying Envoi Allen would beat Shishkin over 2m can’t be backed-up with any objective measure, other than the relative results against Abacadbras.....which makes them close enough as to be arguable either way, depending on which ‘camp’ you happen to be in.

    Better we just celebrate both horses, hope they fulfil their full potential, and that they meet one day in a competitve scenario over fences.
    Yes. Shiskin actually looked a bit slow in being unable to hold its place in the Supreme. The mistake was relatively minor but he wasn't able to hold his position.

    I wouldnt class myself as an EA super-fan or a super-fan of any horse. I have made more money of Shiskin (as if that matters). There is a reason why I didn't start a thread after he beat January Jets. You can pretend that I did, if that helps you somehow. And Shiskin did show at Kempton that he likes jumping fences - but more guessy, exuberant but guessier, than EA - who even when was tested by Jack Kennedy coming to the last today didnt turn a hair. Up to that point, todays race was irrelevant.

    But now you are saying that on a fair reading of form Shiskin and EA is that had similar form over 2m, and saying that EA would beat him is not just someone treating Shiskin unfairly. I believe that EA would beat Shiskin over hurdles and if Abracadras was behind Shiskin, rather than getting to the front too soon, he probably would have had last March. I believe he would beat him at 2m over fences and am a little bit sick that I wont get to punt on that.
    Last edited by HawkWing; 29th November 2020 at 10:06 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    HW, you were the one who brought-up Shishkin’s maiden chase - not me - so don’t give out with nonsense like “if it helps you” - it will only serve to make you look like a daftie.

    And don’t put words in my mouth about their hurdling either.

    I’m saying it can be argued either way. There’s only one of us suggesting it’s conclusive and inarguable. It isn’t.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 29th November 2020 at 10:12 PM.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member tiggers1972's Avatar
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    Wasn't Envoi Allen's time today 3 seconds slower than the 117 rated winner of the handicap on the same card today?

    Think its quite straightforward over 2 miles Shiskin over 2 1/2 Envoi Allen, that's why they won't ever meet,

  5. #25
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    2 completely different horses imo

    1 is a 2 miler the other a 2m 4f plus horse

    Shishkin is a faster horse NQAT, you could run Shishkin in a G3 1m 4f on the flat and he'd be competetive

    Envoi would not

    2 potential Hall of famers

  6. #26
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    Yes, I agree with the previous two posts. They’ll never meet, but they could dominate their divisions for the next three years.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    HW, you were the one who brought-up Shishkin’s maiden chase - not me - so don’t give out with nonsense like “if it helps you” - it will only serve to make you look like a daftie.

    And don’t put words in my mouth about their hurdling either.

    I’m saying it can be argued either way. There’s only one of us suggesting it’s conclusive and inarguable. It isn’t.
    Where did I say it was inarguable or conclusive?

    It is my opinion that Envoi Allen would beat Shisken over 2m. A minority opinion. You seemed to take the statement "If Envoi Allen wants to win over 2m, Envoi Allen wins over 2m." to be disrespectful to Shisken and came in riding to his rescue. Good. Others, like Frankel, seemed to take it in the spirit in which it was meant.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    I don’t have the inclination or the energy to stoke this pointless spat further, and certainly don’t want to fall-out with you again.

    My initial statement was that it was a bold call to reckon Envoi would be an odds-on poke against Shishkin over 2m - and I stand by it - but you’re perfectly entitled to hold that opinion.

    As you and others have said, it would be a race to savour, should it ever happen.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  9. #29
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    I’d have Envoi Allen odds on as Shishkin has Nico riding him.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double J View Post
    I’d have Envoi Allen odds on as Shishkin has Nico riding him.
    Say what!
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankel View Post
    Say what!
    I think Nico is a penalty to some horses. Very fortunate to have the Hendo job.

  12. #32
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    Two lovely horses but to my eye Envoi Allen looks different gravy. Not that he is likely to be dropping in trip but the Ballymore has produced Champion Hurdle winners and some realy top notch 2m hurdlers like Peddlars Cross, The New One not to mention Hardy Eustace and Faugheen. It would be a brave man to oppose him at any trip IMO. Envoi Allen I can see reaching the heights of champions like Sprinter and Kauto but Shishkin I think while very good I can't see him being the next Altior for Nicky Henderson...Time will tell
    Formely Fist of Fury

  13. #33
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double J View Post
    I think Nico is a penalty to some horses. Very fortunate to have the Hendo job.
    Can't agree there D...If Nicky Henderson entrusts a jockey to ride the majority of horses for his owners trust me you are talking one of the best in the country
    Formely Fist of Fury

  14. #34
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanlic View Post
    Two lovely horses but to my eye Envoi Allen looks different gravy. Not that he is likely to be dropping in trip but the Ballymore has produced Champion Hurdle winners and some realy top notch 2m hurdlers like Peddlars Cross, The New One not to mention Hardy Eustace and Faugheen. It would be a brave man to oppose him at any trip IMO. Envoi Allen I can see reaching the heights of champions like Sprinter and Kauto but Shishkin I think while very good I can't see him being the next Altior for Nicky Henderson...Time will tell
    The New One was Grade 2 level over 2 miles, and doesn’t warrant mentioning in the same sentence as Hardy Eustace, let alone Faugheen.

    Let’s move along quickly.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 30th November 2020 at 4:58 PM.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    The New One was Grade 2 level over 2 miles, and doesn’t warrant mentioning in the same sentence as Hardy Eustace, let alone Faugheen.

    Let’s move along quickly.
    Horse gd1, imo. Jockey gd2.
    Last edited by reet hard; 30th November 2020 at 5:23 PM.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    My point was the New One won the Ballymore but spent most of his career over 2 miles. He won over 1 million in prize money

    The point being winning the Ballymore doesn't automatically mean its a step towards becoming a staying chaser

    My worry with Shishkin is at Cheltenham Davy Russell was canter on Abracadabra and must have been trading at odds on going to the last.

    I am just not convinced something wasn't quite right with the Elliot horse as he didn't find what you would have expected from a horse travelling so well

    Had he quickened like you thought he was going to I doubt if Shiskin would have gotten near him....
    Formely Fist of Fury

  17. #37
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    Horse gd1, imo. Jockey gd2.
    Never won a Grade 1 hurdle at 2 miles, and had enough attempts.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 30th November 2020 at 5:58 PM.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanlic View Post
    My point was the New One won the Ballymore but spent most of his career over 2 miles. He won over 1 million in prize money

    The point being winning the Ballymore doesn't automatically mean its a step towards becoming a staying chaser

    My worry with Shishkin is at Cheltenham Davy Russell was canter on Abracadabra and must have been trading at odds on going to the last.

    I am just not convinced something wasn't quite right with the Elliot horse as he didn't find what you would have expected from a horse travelling so well

    Had he quickened like you thought he was going to I doubt if Shiskin would have gotten near him....
    The thing b that I need was once shiskin got past abracadabras, abracadabras was coming back to him at the line. Think given the race shiskin won a little cosy but abracadabras would be far far better served having something to aim.at.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkWing View Post
    Think given the race shiskin won a little cosy but abracadabras would be far far better served having something to aim.at.
    Tend to agree with this. SR appeared unlucky the last day but not convinced Abra didn't pull himself up.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Never won a Grade 1 hurdle at 2 miles, and had enough attempts.
    Excluding CH which is run over 2m plus

    Actual 2 mile grade 1's not even a handful and 2 of those were against Buvi and Faugheen...2nd to MTOY and Yanworth

    You are missing the point. The horse was a very good 2 miler who won the Ballymore
    Formely Fist of Fury

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