Nigel Twiston Davies and David Pipe

[HawkWing]

Hobbs is getting a bit of a bad rap, and I can't agree with it. His horses haven't been quite right for getting close to 12 months, and people are confusing that with his ability when his record says otherwise. He didn't suddenly become a bad trainer. He's also never had the ammunation of Henderson and Nicholls, and if anything I'd say he overperformed for a long time with what he had.

What we're seeing now is the emergence of Dan Skelton and Olly Murphy, and all the other young guns who are attracting big money from wealthy owners, and it's got much harder for trainers like Hobbs to but quality. Of the good trainers that have suffered, I'd say he's the one that has suffered most from the new trainers coming along.

I'd be more than happy to have a horse with him, and would rather him than Skelton who surely ate Martin Pipe and woke up as him one morning.

Of all the overrated trainers, I'd have Olly Murphy at the very top.

Also, Skelton has had lots of ammunition to date but not sure he has more than 1 grade 1. Third Time Lucki, a case in point, looks great up against lesser animals, comes up short in decent company, then moves onto chasing, looks great against lesser animals. comes up short in decent company, drafts for two years until well handicapped.

Going into Cheltenham last year, Hobbs had Sporting John, Thyme Hill and Defi du Seuil. If anything it was a resurgence. Shouldn't be in then same list, as you suggest.

[granger]

in Ireland, I could think of countless trainers who are more deserving of better horses

The best "new" trainer i see is Gavin Cromwell

Another from the Gordon school

[Grey]

There is a whole tier of NH trainers in the south of England who seem to me to be pure complacent. They introduce their horses in the same maiden hurdles at the same local tracks year after year. If they win, great. If they don't, ah well.

They're not looking out for opportunities in the north of England or in Scotland unless they feel like a holiday. And as for sending horses to Ireland or France, it would never cross their mind. Presumably this attitude derives ultimately from their county set owners, who seemingly would rather win a novice chase at Cheltenham or Ascot than a Grade 1 race somewhere else.

Elliott, Mullins, Nicholls and Henderson have owners who expect their horses to cover their training fees and not just provide a day in the box at their local track.

In Ireland there are plenty of good trainers, and with Joseph O'Brien and Jessica Harrington doing so well on the flat there could be room for one or two of them to step up to the big league. Gavin Cromwell is certainly the most obvious of them, with a Champion Hurdle already under his belt, but he could do with backing from more of the bigger owners.

[reet hard]

As the only one on here who can say “been there, done it, got the unbelievably expensive effing t-shirt” you have no idea what a tough game it is!
You need money. Lots and lots of money. And some early success or you really do sink. It is such an expensive career to be involved in. I sold my house to finance my training. And due to a poisoned water supply that badly affected my horses (Jim Old also told me this was the reason he ended up packing up), I didn’t get that early success. And I haemorrhaged money. Owners took their horses away. They won elsewhere. Demoralising isn’t the word. Eventually when my landlord confessed, I was pretty much broke.
I know I can train horses (I trained horses in the US under another trainers name and also trained a Champion Point to Pointer for a local farmer 9wins from 12 runs when I moved down here). But there are so, so many factors to take into consideration. FWIW I think Philip Hobbs is an excellent trainer. And David Pipe is OK too. Skelton I think is very hard on his horses and would not be my choice but he has winners and has got noticed very early on.

Cracking post, Jinny, and probably more revealing than any other on this thread.

[G-G]

Cracking post, Jinny, and probably more revealing than any other on this thread.

Also Jim Old was an employed trainer and Wally Sturt was seriously winding down. Old not the most socially confident of trainers to attract new owners, plus towards the end he had his wife battling cancer, and the yard being sold.

[Bonjers]

Of all the overrated trainers, I'd have Olly Murphy at the very top.

Also, Skelton has had lots of ammunition to date but not sure he has more than 1 grade 1. Third Time Lucki, a case in point, looks great up against lesser animals, comes up short in decent company, then moves onto chasing, looks great against lesser animals. comes up short in decent company, drafts for two years until well handicapped.

Going into Cheltenham last year, Hobbs had Sporting John, Thyme Hill and Defi du Seuil. If anything it was a resurgence. Shouldn't be in then same list, as you suggest.

Another of his hotpots turned over today in Champagnesuperover who has been hyped up big time. Not a stable I can ever really get to grips with.

Rocheston hit 1000 in running.

[Desert Orchid]

FWIW, I think NTD and DP could have a decent day tomorrow.

[Double J]

FWIW, I think NTD and DP could have a decent day tomorrow.

I started this thread and agree, I may have cursed myself.

I’m on (I’ll say it quietly, Bristol in the Betfair)
He’ll be A1 for this, the swan song, the last dance, the last time dining at the top table, with optimum conditions. I’m currently loving the drift.

CDO will not win. This is a prep for the King George no matter what Nicholls says.

LIT is the best horse in the race for me, but has targets later in the year. Tizzards may be coming back into form, but I also feel deep down they’ll be after the KG and the GC. He’ll be 80% tops.

Briefly.
1.50 - I like Umbrigado of Pipes
2.25 - Main fact, of Pipes as well
Both at Haydock.

All 3 to get stuffed now.

[Desert Orchid]

Briefly.
1.50 - I like Umbrigado of Pipes
2.25 - Main fact, of Pipes as well
Both at Haydock.

All 3 to get stuffed now.

Hope not...

[Maruco]

I think a Third Wind will win Main Fact’s race. Beaten into fourth at Cheltenham by the favourite for this years Stayers Hurdle, a subsequent winner of a Grade 1, and gave weight to the third who was a subsequent placer in a Grade 1.

Made early out of character mistakes and lost his pitch, and finished as well as anything. Runs off the same mark tomorrow after having a sharpener.

[Desert Orchid]

Made early out of character mistakes and lost his pitch, and finished as well as anything. Runs off the same mark tomorrow after having a sharpener.

I made a point of watching that whole race earlier this evening, Maruco, because both Relegate and TW are engaged tomorrow.

I just thought maybe neither had the pace to race more prominently but Relegate was further forward and gave up the inside to no-one until approaching the last. TW made his move earlier but was slowing close home. I mentioned elsewhere that TW was the only British runner in among a fistful of raiders in a strong race and maybe has the more scope for improvement. But for the presence of Main Fact, he'd be the bet. I've backed MF for both the Champion Hurdle (66/1) and Stayers' (50/1) because there's no way yet of knowing just how good he might be.

[Maruco]

I think your view on Main Fact is fair enough. He’s been on a sharp upward curve. The doubt I have about him is based on his ability on the flat and how far can he can take his mark before the handicapper catches up with him. You see him as having the potential to be a graded hurdler, so have taken the view that there’s the potential for plenty more based on what you’ve seen which is fair enough.

The Pipe’s love him though and they’re more likely to be right than me!

[an capall]

Speaking of NTD. Can anybody recall the rreason behind his spilt with Peter Scu all those years ago? My memory span is seriously diminished thses days I'm afraid.

[Desert Orchid]

Not as diminished as mine. I don't recall their association!

Could you be thinking of Tom Scu? Was he nudged aside as Sam progressed through his apprenticeship?

[an capall]

P-Scu (his rapper name) was assistant to Nige when he retired from riding. Then I think NTD had some kind of wobble and decided to retire. Bindaree winning the GN changed his mind - but Scu left the yard around the same time. Fergal O'Brien stepped up. I can't recall if it was harmonic or acrimonious.

[Grasshopper]

P-Scu and Carl Llewelyn (rapper name Puff Dai’ddy) had a very short-lived association as trainer/assistant or assistant/trainer, I think.

I don’t suppose this helps very much.

[Desert Orchid]

P-Scu (his rapper name) was assistant to Nige when he retired from riding.

Ding!

[Grasshopper]

Despite my general distaste for Pipe as a trainer, even the useless ones have a job on stopping good horses, and I think Main Fact is a great price at 8/1 in the 3m handicap hurdle at Haydock.

Trip today is a question-mark (ground absolutely fine) and based on the way he finishes his races, I reckon he has every chance of getting it. I can see a last-to-first-style swoop over the last half-mile.

Good thing, imo.

[Diamond Geezer]

P-Scu and Carl Llewelyn (rapper name Puff Dai’ddy) had a very short-lived association as trainer/assistant or assistant/trainer, I think.

I don’t suppose this helps very much.

Twelve years !

[Grasshopper]

Christ! Was it really that long?

I thought Llewellyn had bailed out of it after about 18 months.

Age clearly withering my memory.