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  1. #81
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    He'd have a right chance if they crawled around like they did this year.

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  3. #82
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    Aye. Well done.

    I have to say Vinndication looked a bit sluggish, and given this I think ran well enough first time out.

    He's finished a length or so off a 176 rated horse in Cyrname, I wouldn't be too disheartened if I were connections.
    Last edited by Marb; 31st October 2020 at 4:36 PM.

  4. #83
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonjers View Post
    He'd have a right chance if they crawled around like they did this year.
    No chance.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  5. #84
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Vinndication also finished a handful of lengths in front of a hose rated in the 140ís though. I wouldnít be getting too excited about the proximity to Cyrname, who barely came out of a canter.

    To be fair, Vinn finished a lot closer than I thought he would after a circuit - his jumping in the first mile or so was a bit ropey. Not a Grade 1 horse, for my money.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 31st October 2020 at 4:41 PM.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  6. #85
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    That's very harsh given that Aye Right has only just come out of novice company.

  7. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marb View Post
    Aye. Well done.

    I have to say Vinndication looked a bit sluggish, and given this I think ran well enough first time out.

    He's finished a length or so off a 176 rated horse in Cyrname, I wouldn't be too disheartened if I were connections.
    Sorry make that 2L that he was beaten.

    You might argue Cyrname didn't run to his full capability, (or won in a canter), but for different reasons I don't think Vinndication ran to his either. Like you said, jumping was ropey early on and looked sluggish.

    He'll be a decent price wherever he goes next.
    Last edited by Marb; 31st October 2020 at 4:56 PM.

  8. #87
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Well done all those who kept the faith with Cyrname. The result wasn't really in doubt in the last mile.

    Vinndication didn't jump well, fiddling some and stretching for others. He can be marked up but only if his jumping improves.

    Aye Right was entitled to improve this season and has run a cracker.

    I think it was a decent enough race. There were some grand old stalwarts whose level we know one by one coming off the bit as the pace caught them out and the right two horses were there at the end.

    Vinndication could be a National horse, certainly in terms of stamina but you'd need to hope the fences would get him jumping better.

    Good race.
    Two's company, three's allowed.

  9. #88
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    Agree, DO. As Euro pointed out before last seasons Cheltenham Festival, there is a question mark as to whether Vinndication is actually better horse right handed, (although he obviously handles left handed tracks) which is why I mentioned the King George.

    Granted, he'd need to improve a stone on todays race to have any chance in a King George but stranger things have happened. I'd keep him back for a crack at it, as opposed to running in a Betfair Chase or Ladbrokes Chase in the next few weeks.
    Last edited by Marb; 31st October 2020 at 5:11 PM.

  10. #89
    Senior Member granger's Avatar
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    Cyrname strikes me as a horse who when its really put to him may flop.

    I liked him for today and will in future but I think he deserves a squiggle still
    Some people say heís the best since Arkle and thatís certainly true when you look at what heís done

  11. #90
    Senior Member tiggers1972's Avatar
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    I backed Vinndication, but to me he never travelled.
    Cyrname was impressive, looked to me a married man's gallop though.

  12. #91
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    I think that Cyrname was at the end of his tether from the last and nursed up the straight. His class and speed of jumping always allowing Cobden to coast along. Had he missed the last it would have been very interesting. Would give the 2m plenty to think about, but place lay for King George for me.

  13. #92
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Hard to come out with much beyond a mark in the low-mid 160s for Cyrname yesterday unless Vinndication did improve as much as I'd hoped. Aye Right definitely improved as some of the good judges on here anticipated. The other finishers look to have run close to their marks.

    Connections of the likes of Definitely Red are entitled to see this as one that they could have bagged but it would have been at the expense of a good handicap mark. It will be interesting to see where they go with him now. Maybe another crack at the National? They didn't show their hand with him last season until after the weights were out.

    Same with Ballyoptic. A big run here would have killed his mark and he needs to drop back to the mid-high 150s.

    I agree with HW about Cyrname being nursed up the straight but don't think it had anything to do with stamina issues. I think it was about winning without having a hard race. I think the pace was sound and they were falling by the wayside one by one and slowing down all the way up the straight.

    If I get the cnance/time today I'll do a crude sectional comparison with the other chases on the card.
    Two's company, three's allowed.

  14. #93
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkWing View Post
    I think that Cyrname was at the end of his tether from the last and nursed up the straight. His class and speed of jumping always allowing Cobden to coast along. Had he missed the last it would have been very interesting. Would give the 2m plenty to think about, but place lay for King George for me.
    Exactly right in my opinion. That he won in a canter is an exaggeration. Doubt that there was much left in the tank.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew."

  15. #94
    Senior Member tiggers1972's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by an capall View Post
    Exactly right in my opinion. That he won in a canter is an exaggeration. Doubt that there was much left in the tank.
    Yeah I kind of agree with this too.

  16. #95
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    Agree with the above comments.

    Not sure he’d get home in a Ryanair at the pace, never mind a Gold Cup.

  17. #96
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    If I get the cnance/time today I'll do a crude sectional comparison with the other chases on the card.
    Hands up. This didn't work out as I'd half-anticipated.

    I hadn't seen the earlier Class 4 hcap over CD so didn't really know what to expect but you would hope the much classier Charlie Hall race would have been a good 20lbs faster.

    The C4 race looked pretty well run and had a clear-cut winner but I still expected the CH to be quicker by some way.

    In fact, the other race was quicker through most of the first circuit. Between fences 7 and 8 the CH came from 5 lengths behind (assuming 5 lengths per second) to five in front, stayed that distance ahead for another couple of fences and then moved another five clear between 10 and 11 but the C4 race pulled the deficit back over the next couple to be dead level 6 out before going ahead at the next before the CH drew five lengths ahead four out. The C4 pulled that back by the next and was still level two out. Cyrname then pulled five clear going to the last and another five further clear by the line (being nursed).

    I reckon the CH was a decent enough race using Vinndication and Aye Right as markers but it makes me think the clear winner of the C4 race was much better than might have been expected for the class of race. I'll put that winner in my tracker to see how the form pans out.

    Edit - Just checked the winner. He had been a 135-hurdler with Dan Skelton this time last season but was racing here in a chase off just 115 whereas he should have been able to go on to become a 145 chaser. It's the kind of rating anomaly I might have picked up on had I been able to see better. I can see him going up to 130 (should he come back over here soon) for the win.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 1st November 2020 at 12:40 PM.
    Two's company, three's allowed.

  18. #97
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double J View Post
    Agree with the above comments.

    Not sure he’d get home in a Ryanair at the pace, never mind a Gold Cup.
    It's annoying that the immediate narrative on ITV was that Nicholls had stuck it all to the doubters - that the race proved Cyrname is effective left handed and stays three miles. It did neither - a lazy and shallow conclusion and will cost less informed punters hard earned cash in the medium term.
    Last edited by an capall; 1st November 2020 at 12:40 PM.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew."

  19. #98
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    He pinged every fence straight as you like- surely he's proved he can go left handed it nothing else? It's as good a jumping display as you'd ever want to see for a horse supposedly hapless going left handed.

  20. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonjers View Post
    He pinged every fence straight as you like- surely he's proved he can go left handed it nothing else? It's as good a jumping display as you'd ever want to see for a horse supposedly hapless going left handed.
    I think that's partly the point - who was saying he was hapless left handed? I guess those who allowed him to go off at the price he was. He happened to have his improvement coincide with racing right-handed. Isn't Wetherby two long straights and gentle sweeping bends? If, and dont think there ever really was a concern, I dont think it was proven yesterday. If he was in better company coming up the centre of the track rather than tight to the rails "may" have caused some issues. (I doubt it though).

    He jumped brilliantly and largely because he is/was a class above the others in the race. The flat track allows the horse to capitalise on that while others were sticky and having to chase along to get back on terms. Whether it would be as effective at cheltenham, for instance, I'm not sure.

  21. #100
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Novice handicap chase 2017 at Newbury. He jumped way out to the right virtually every fence. He went into my tracker that day as he wasnt beaten that far despite the extra ground he covered. I backed him his next two starts when he was beaten by Terrefort in the Scilly Isles before winning the Pendil.
    On the one hand yes he's an experienced campaigner in the best hands so there was always a chance the lh issue was gonna be ironed out. However he never recovered from the Altior match-up last year and there were also stamina concerns. I think his sp was about right ultimately

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