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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkWing View Post
    Yeah. He won the Gold Cups and delighted for Willie. Its not his fault that others didnt perform/didnt show up/didnt progress as he did. It feels like a weakish generation as a result and its not as if he is dominating them. I hope he wins for his fans.
    the opinion that it's a weakish generation, which i fairly agree with, makes it not that hard to argue he's been the best horse from it.

    you mention kemboy/clan des obeaux but you cannot think its an easy argument to say either of those are objectively better than al boum photo. i dont think there's that much between all of them but i'd say its easier to argue ABP is the top dog of the 3.

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  3. #642
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    Frodon
    Now then?
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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  5. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesRB View Post
    the opinion that it's a weakish generation, which i fairly agree with, makes it not that hard to argue he's been the best horse from it.

    you mention kemboy/clan des obeaux but you cannot think its an easy argument to say either of those are objectively better than al boum photo. i dont think there's that much between all of them but i'd say its easier to argue ABP is the top dog of the 3.
    Yeah. There isn't much between the three of them. ABP may be best suited to chelt 3m2 but not sure he has been better than clans king George or kemboy at his best

  6. #644
    Senior Member granger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkWing View Post
    ??
    Taking a stance where your stance is unquestionable to a double gold cup winning horse

    But you knew this already
    Some people say heís the best since Arkle and thatís certainly true when you look at what heís done

  7. #645
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    Genuinely still confused. Just have the opinion that ABPs best Gold cup runs wouldnt necessarily be enough to beat Clan des obeauxs KG or Kemboys best.

  8. #646
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    2 seasons ago, Kemboy was the best staying chaser according to OR and Timeform. Last season it was Al Boum Photo and he is a solid favourite this season.

    For all the chatter about ABP's schedule, no-one seems concerned that Champ has only run once and A Plus Tard twice so far this season. Of the main contenders, Minella Indo is the only one to have appeared more than 3 times.

    ABP and Champ are both 9yos. According to the RP, ABP has had 17 career outings winning over £863K and Champ just 14 for £286K. I imagine the Donnellys are relaxed about his place in the pantheon.
    Last edited by archie; 5th March 2021 at 10:59 AM.
    The older I get the better I was.

  9. #647
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    Regardless of the strength of the division currently, and there is no doubt that it is weaker than a number of years ago, what elevates ABP above the rest and which he doesn't get enough credit for is his adaptability, to win two gold cups in itself is an incredible achievement but to win two in such differently run races is what sets him apart - both CDO and Kemboy have very specific conditions that they need to show their best - ABP is much more versatile and consistent and at the end of the day is quite simply just better!

    I'm not sure why he doesn't get the credit he deserves or why he hasn't captured the hearts of racing fans but its probably a combination of things - he was largely unfancied in his first win - Ruby didn't even pick him - and then and probably most significantly is how he is campaigned, UK racegoers and casual IRE race fans only see or hear of him in March.

    He has a great opportunity to join the elite list of 3 times Gold Cup winners and yet even if he does he won't be considered anything other that a good consistent horse, which is amazing really when you think about it. Tiger Roll for example is a household name and everyone knows who he is, the casual racing fan would have to be reminded who ABP is.

  10. #648
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    I suppose you can only beat what's put in front of you so ABP, not unlike Best Mate, is potentially a triple winner; a smart horse in a modest era.

    I really wanted Santini to progress 7lbs from last year to this. So far it hasn't happened.

    I wanted Minella Indo and Allaho to progress into top notchers. That hasn't really happened either.

    Even though I backed champ before his big run the other day, that was with a view to snaffling some value. He still has it to prove too.

    Kemboy strikes me as pretty much on a par with ABP. He should have every chance. I don't buy the course aversion theory.

    Native River might struggle on the decent ground but the fact he was so impressive last time maybe tells you all you need to know about the current crop.

    Royale Pagaille is the big unknown but I have him covered too at 50/1.

    The words "glorified" and "handicap" spring to mind...
    Two's company, three's allowed.

  11. #649
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post

    Kemboy strikes me as pretty much on a par with ABP. He should have every chance. I don't buy the course aversion theory.
    It's not all course, I think he needs a soft lead and/or a small field. This is the wrong race for him.

  12. #650
    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Geezer View Post
    Jack Kennedy is set to ride Minella Indo in the Gold Cup while Rachael Blackmore will partner A Plus Tard.
    Try and keep up
    "The owls are not what they seem"

  13. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie View Post
    2 seasons ago, Kemboy was the best staying chaser according to OR and Timeform. Last season it was Al Boum Photo and he is a solid favourite this season.

    For all the chatter about ABP's schedule, no-one seems concerned that Champ has only run once and A Plus Tard twice so far this season. Of the main contenders, Minella Indo is the only one to have appeared more than 3 times.

    ABP and Champ are both 9yos. According to the RP, ABP has had 17 career outings winning over £863K and Champ just 14 for £286K. I imagine the Donnellys are relaxed about his place in the pantheon.
    Bobs Worth only had 1 run prior to his CGC win, on only his 12th start overall - just saying.
    ďTodayís scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. Ē
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  14. #652
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Speaking of Bob's Worth, he was pretty much gone after his Gold Cup. This is Champ's one chance, esp with EA and Monkfish looming.

  15. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    It's not all course, I think he needs a soft lead and/or a small field. This is the wrong race for him.
    ran well enough in the lexus which is probably the most relevant trial for this, didn't get soft lead and field was big enough

    last year's run definitely a neg though, year before that can have a line drawn through it

  16. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    I suppose you can only beat what's put in front of you so ABP, not unlike Best Mate, is potentially a triple winner; a smart horse in a modest era.

    I really wanted Santini to progress 7lbs from last year to this. So far it hasn't happened.

    I wanted Minella Indo and Allaho to progress into top notchers. That hasn't really happened either.

    Even though I backed champ before his big run the other day, that was with a view to snaffling some value. He still has it to prove too.

    Kemboy strikes me as pretty much on a par with ABP. He should have every chance. I don't buy the course aversion theory.

    Native River might struggle on the decent ground but the fact he was so impressive last time maybe tells you all you need to know about the current crop.

    Royale Pagaille is the big unknown but I have him covered too at 50/1.

    The words "glorified" and "handicap" spring to mind...
    I think the parallel with Best Mate is spot on. No superstar just the beneficiary of a lack of serious competition.
    I donít think any of this yearís lineup have shown enough to persuade me they can beat ABP

    That includes Royale Pagaille but I may have had a different view on that one if Cap du Nord had won either of his two recent runs

    Champ the unknown but a lotís being asked of him IMO


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  17. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post

    The words "glorified" and "handicap" spring to mind...
    Been that way for at least 10 years now - with the possible exception of Native Rivers win - even that had no depth at all.

    Hopefully Monkfish, Envoi Allen, Royal Pagaille et al can elevate the division back to where it was in the Kauto/Denman era.

  18. #656
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef or Salmon View Post
    Been that way for at least 10 years now - with the possible exception of Native Rivers win - even that had no depth at all.
    Probably.

    I suppose I remember Best Mate because of all the hype surrounding him. I've probably subconsciously swept the other average renewals under a carpet in a corner of my mind.

    I need to leave some room inside my head for other space invaders.
    Two's company, three's allowed.

  19. #657
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef or Salmon View Post
    Been that way for at least 10 years now - with the possible exception of Native Rivers win - even that had no depth at all.

    I'd push back a little there. Bob's Worth was a decent enough renewal.

    Don Cossack was a top class winner although he was a tad lucky to get a small field in his year. I think he was in the Cyrname/Kemboy mold, although better.
    Last edited by Euronymous; 5th March 2021 at 11:51 AM.

  20. #658
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    Don Cossack was a very good winner. Shame he didn't get the opportunity to prove it further. In hindsight, a little unlucky in the King George.

  21. #659
    Senior Member barjon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beef or Salmon View Post
    Been that way for at least 10 years now - with the possible exception of Native Rivers win - even that had no depth at all.

    Hopefully Monkfish, Envoi Allen, Royal Pagaille et al can elevate the division back to where it was in the Kauto/Denman era.
    Aye, but thereís been plenty of long gaps between superstar champions being on the scene. Itís difficult to judge ABP since he only appears infrequently, but you can only beat whatís put in front of you. He may go down as the most under-rated champion in history! On the other hand, itís really time for another superstar to appear - canít see anyone but Champ filling that bill, but heíll need to perform wonders to do it.
    Last edited by barjon; 5th March 2021 at 12:13 PM.

  22. #660
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    it's also unrealistic to expect a kauto/denman era anytime soon. denman at his peak is probably what you'd want from a horse going for a gold cup if you had your pick of any in the last 20 years and kauto was obviously a freak as well in his own way. you could be waiting 50+ years for two horses like that to appear at the same time in the same division at their peaks.

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