The Road To The 2021 Cheltenham Gold Cup

[HawkWing]

The various postponements and minor issues with the horse obviously lead to 'thinking outside the box' in the case of Champ.

If I owned Champ I would support Hendo's decision to prep him over shorter. I suppose that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

While the situations aren't apples and apples, Sizing John started his Gold Cup season over 2m1f and Don Cossack's prep run was over 2m4f and those are just the two previous winners before Al Boum Photo.

That is answering a different question, isn't it. Best Mate ran in a 2m handicap at Ascot, Kauto won an Ascot Chase. Gold Cup horses can run over 2m, just it hasn't happened in February of their Gold Cup year.

[Maxbet]

No he doesn't

"In a statement, Henderson said: "With regards to Altior and Champ, under the current circumstances and having discussed the situation in detail with all connections involved, we have come to the conclusion that Altior will head straight to the Cheltenham Festival for the Champion Chase without a run beforehand."

I read the Sporting Life account, They report it differently than all the others:

“With regards to Altior and Champ, under the current circumstances and having discussed the situation in detail with all connections involved, we have come to the conclusion that Altior will head straight to the Cheltenham Festival without a run beforehand.

“He is in excellent form, but he does tend to take his races quite hard and we have therefore decided to continue his preparation at home and almost certainly an away-day at some stage in the next 10 days.”

[Grasshopper]

The various postponements and minor issues with the horse obviously lead to 'thinking outside the box' in the case of Champ.

If I owned Champ I would support Hendo's decision to prep him over shorter. I suppose that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

While the situations aren't apples and apples, Sizing John started his Gold Cup season over 2m1f and Don Cossack's prep run was over 2m4f and those are just the two previous winners before Al Boum Photo.

In Sizing John’s case, they were having one last crack at Douvan to see if he was a 2-miler, before upping him in trip, DO. It’s not the same thing.

I think it’s fair enough running your horse over too short a trip, if that’s the only option open to you. But there is a perfectly acceptable alternative at the right trip for Champ, on the same day.

As Slim says, Champ is hardly an accomplished fencer, and only has 4 chase outings under his belt. Running him in a 2-mile Grade 2 (where they inevitably go faster, putting more emphasis on jumping), as a prep for a Gold Cup run - which will only be his 6th chase outing - just seems ridiculous, when the 3m alternative is there.

Ultimately, Henderson and JP can do what they like, so this is all so-much hot-air from the likes of me. But we wouldn’t have much of a forum, if we didn’t take a view on what looks (to me, at any rate) a completely bizarre decision.

[Desert Orchid]

That is answering a different question, isn't it. Best Mate ran in a 2m handicap at Ascot, Kauto won an Ascot Chase. Gold Cup horses can run over 2m, just it hasn't happened in February of their Gold Cup year.

Accepted but I think the original claim was that plenty of horses prep (didn't necessarily mean final prep) over shorter.

This is an unusual circumstance and, presumably, not one Henderson would have planned. He's just trying to make the best of adverse circumstances.

I certainly don't see it as any big deal and the up side is that anyone who fancies Champ for the festival might be in a win-win situation here, in that if he just pops round near the edge of his comfort zone and loses (as I expect), his price will lengthen for the festival. If he goes and wins (which I can't see), it strengthens his case for the festival as it will show he has the pace for shorter.

Dick Hern once said Brigadier Gerard would win a Nunthorpe. Ruby Walsh often talks about the difference in pace at different trips being only about 1mph, it's sustaining the pace over the trip that separates the horses.

If they go anything other than a true pace over 2m, Champ shouldn't be too far, if at all, out of his comfort zone. He'd be likely to plug on at one pace in the final half-mile. If they go fast he can just sit off and plug on as the others slow down from the final fence and finish respectably held.

I have no financial interest in Champ for any race at the festival so no axe to grind. I just don't see anything wrong with the idea of running over 2m in the circumstances.

[Maxbet]

https://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/...=International

Nicky has been experimenting lately, he's decided to put some horses on a Fartlek regime. Champ was one of the horses chosen for the experiment. Champ had shown remarkable improvement during this training. On reporting the findings to his owners, who seriously thought he was going mad when he told them of the result's. So he set up an experiment: Champ ran one and a half miles with Altior as a lead horse, only Altior couldn't keep up. Everyone that was there that afternoon, stood there in amazement when, just as Altior gave way, another horse picked up the baton and tried to lead him. They omitted the fences on this second half of the experiment for good reason because Champ was really in rhythm by now and there was no catching him. With a furlong to go on the experiment, the lead horse, who was obviously struggling to keep up, eased off and came home on the bridal. J P asked Mr H, "who was the other horse". On whispering into JP's ear it was obvious from his reaction that it was pure disbelief...."nahhh, no way said JP...." it is" said Mr H....." Shiskin" said JP...."honestly"...."no" said Mr H..." but it was impressive don't you think"? Anyway, the long and short of it is; they have decided to run him over 2 miles in a grade 2, with a view to a Paying a subsidised entry into the Queen Mother Chase.

The reason non of this has been made public, is because people might begin to think Mr H is losing the plot.....never.

So Champ has had a 3m simulation against 2 separate horses, at speed, but a 3-mile race could, in his words be detrimental....Mental more like....

“He will now drop back down to two miles and contest the Game Spirit, instead of the Denman Chase."

“He hasn’t run for a year, ( well that's a lie, you said he's had a simulation) so we could be in danger that three miles may be slightly too far ( but not if we break it into two) for his first run of the season. He is a fresh horse and can be quite free in his races, so it would be harder to curtail enthusiasm and you’re never going to take as much out over two miles as you are over three."

“He could be keen and do too much, so in the interest of the Gold Cup being his ultimate goal, it is preferable to run over a shorter distance, which could stop him having a harder race than necessary and also help eliminate the risk of the bounce factor."

Boying, Boying, Boying.....Is that how you spell the sound of a bounce....

Senility setting in!!!

I am backing Champ to win the Game spirit....It was Shiskin...

[HawkWing]

Accepted but I think the original claim was that plenty of horses prep (didn't necessarily mean final prep) over shorter.

This is an unusual circumstance and, presumably, not one Henderson would have planned. He's just trying to make the best of adverse circumstances.

I certainly don't see it as any big deal and the up side is that anyone who fancies Champ for the festival might be in a win-win situation here, in that if he just pops round near the edge of his comfort zone and loses (as I expect), his price will lengthen for the festival. If he goes and wins (which I can't see), it strengthens his case for the festival as it will show he has the pace for shorter.

Dick Hern once said Brigadier Gerard would win a Nunthorpe. Ruby Walsh often talks about the difference in pace at different trips being only about 1mph, it's sustaining the pace over the trip that separates the horses.

If they go anything other than a true pace over 2m, Champ shouldn't be too far, if at all, out of his comfort zone. He'd be likely to plug on at one pace in the final half-mile. If they go fast he can just sit off and plug on as the others slow down from the final fence and finish respectably held.

I have no financial interest in Champ for any race at the festival so no axe to grind. I just don't see anything wrong with the idea of running over 2m in the circumstances.

I dont think it does his Gold Cup chances any harm, and will run fine and safe. He will go at his own pace and may stay on if the race falls apart. I don't think they will be going quick enough to put himself in danger jumpwise, as the instructions will be for him not to get involved in anything that causes him any danger. Henderson is letting everyone know that he isnt really gunning for this race, and will be interesting in the circumstances to see how stewards and media cover it.

[HawkWing]

Integrity ought to be an issue for everyone; posting lies, to have a dig is not cool - and it's not the first time.

Any evidence for this? From this thread even?

[Maxbet]

I don't think it does his Gold Cup chances any harm and will run fine and safe. He will go at his own pace and may stay on if the race falls apart. I don't think they will be going quick enough to put himself in danger jump wise, as the instructions will be for him not to get involved in anything that causes him any danger. Henderson is letting everyone know that he isn't really gunning for this race, and will be interesting in the circumstances to see how stewards and media cover it.

The stewards could give him a large fine and a 40-day ban on his own words alone...Nahhh...Not after Trump was acquitted...

Still think there's a surprise in store here....wins the Game spirit..

[Flaggers]

I know it’s Henderson so we have to take things with a certain pinch of salt but this just makes me happier with positions and potential horses to get with!

I’ve got ABP, Melon and Native River covered. Not that I feel Melon can win it.
Kemboy has further franked the A Plus Tard form, and I’ve just taken a look again at the betting. I can’t have Indo, Santini, Champ, Frodon, Lostintranslation, Delta Work and then you’re at Cyrname and Imperial Aura who won’t run.

Call me crazy but if we forgive Vinndication for being lame in the Ladbrokes Trophy, 50/1 ew seems huge, 40/1 nrnb... He might not be good enough but 2L behind Cyrname on soft ground, I think I’m happy to find out!


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[Desert Orchid]

https://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/...=International

Nicky has been experimenting lately, he's decided to put some horses on a Fartlek regime. Champ was one of the horses chosen for the experiment. Champ had shown remarkable improvement during this training. On reporting the findings to his owners, who seriously thought he was going mad when he told them of the result's. So he set up an experiment: Champ ran one and a half miles with Altior as a lead horse, only Altior couldn't keep up. Everyone that was there that afternoon, stood there in amazement when, just as Altior gave way, another horse picked up the baton and tried to lead him. They omitted the fences on this second half of the experiment for good reason because Champ was really in rhythm by now and there was no catching him. With a furlong to go on the experiment, the lead horse, who was obviously struggling to keep up, eased off and came home on the bridal. J P asked Mr H, "who was the other horse". On whispering into JP's ear it was obvious from his reaction that it was pure disbelief...."nahhh, no way said JP...." it is" said Mr H....." Shiskin" said JP...."honestly"...."no" said Mr H..." but it was impressive don't you think"? Anyway, the long and short of it is; they have decided to run him over 2 miles in a grade 2, with a view to a Paying a subsidised entry into the Queen Mother Chase.

The reason non of this has been made public, is because people might begin to think Mr H is losing the plot.....never.

So Champ has had a 3m simulation against 2 separate horses, at speed, but a 3-mile race could, in his words be detrimental....Mental more like....

“He will now drop back down to two miles and contest the Game Spirit, instead of the Denman Chase."

“He hasn’t run for a year, ( well that's a lie, you said he's had a simulation) so we could be in danger that three miles may be slightly too far ( but not if we break it into two) for his first run of the season. He is a fresh horse and can be quite free in his races, so it would be harder to curtail enthusiasm and you’re never going to take as much out over two miles as you are over three."

“He could be keen and do too much, so in the interest of the Gold Cup being his ultimate goal, it is preferable to run over a shorter distance, which could stop him having a harder race than necessary and also help eliminate the risk of the bounce factor."

Boying, Boying, Boying.....Is that how you spell the sound of a bounce....

Senility setting in!!!

I am backing Champ to win the Game spirit....It was Shiskin...

Chr1st, Maxbet. It isn't even 11 o'clock yet and you are pished

[JamesRB]

https://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/...=International

Nicky has been experimenting lately, he's decided to put some horses on a Fartlek regime. Champ was one of the horses chosen for the experiment. Champ had shown remarkable improvement during this training. On reporting the findings to his owners, who seriously thought he was going mad when he told them of the result's. So he set up an experiment: Champ ran one and a half miles with Altior as a lead horse, only Altior couldn't keep up. Everyone that was there that afternoon, stood there in amazement when, just as Altior gave way, another horse picked up the baton and tried to lead him. They omitted the fences on this second half of the experiment for good reason because Champ was really in rhythm by now and there was no catching him. With a furlong to go on the experiment, the lead horse, who was obviously struggling to keep up, eased off and came home on the bridal. J P asked Mr H, "who was the other horse". On whispering into JP's ear it was obvious from his reaction that it was pure disbelief...."nahhh, no way said JP...." it is" said Mr H....." Shiskin" said JP...."honestly"...."no" said Mr H..." but it was impressive don't you think"? Anyway, the long and short of it is; they have decided to run him over 2 miles in a grade 2, with a view to a Paying a subsidised entry into the Queen Mother Chase.

The reason non of this has been made public, is because people might begin to think Mr H is losing the plot.....never.

So Champ has had a 3m simulation against 2 separate horses, at speed, but a 3-mile race could, in his words be detrimental....Mental more like....

“He will now drop back down to two miles and contest the Game Spirit, instead of the Denman Chase."

“He hasn’t run for a year, ( well that's a lie, you said he's had a simulation) so we could be in danger that three miles may be slightly too far ( but not if we break it into two) for his first run of the season. He is a fresh horse and can be quite free in his races, so it would be harder to curtail enthusiasm and you’re never going to take as much out over two miles as you are over three."

“He could be keen and do too much, so in the interest of the Gold Cup being his ultimate goal, it is preferable to run over a shorter distance, which could stop him having a harder race than necessary and also help eliminate the risk of the bounce factor."

Boying, Boying, Boying.....Is that how you spell the sound of a bounce....

Senility setting in!!!

I am backing Champ to win the Game spirit....It was Shiskin...

been at the same bottle that henderson has been drinking

[Maxbet]

been at the same bottle that Henderson has been drinking

Thinking outside the same box as Henderson....I think.....maybe...

Makes you think, you don't know what to think!

[Desert Orchid]

Hendo is often out of his box.

[archie]

http://www.irishracing.com/news?head...re&prid=215737

[granger]

Is anyone backing Native River?

[Double J]

Is anyone backing Native River?

Be easier screwing up at £20 note and popping it in the bin wouldn’t it?

[reet hard]

Not if he gets his ground.

[tiggers1972]

Yeah Native River is a funny one, if the words good or soft are in the going the description he'll be off the bridle going down to post.

If it's heavy however..............

[Desert Orchid]

Be easier screwing up at £20 note and popping it in the bin wouldn’t it?

I don't know about that, DJ.

I'm getting really good numbers for Sandown and we know Cheltenham isn't a bother to him.

And he's now top-rated by 2lbs with RPRs.

I haven't backed him but I could easily make a case for doing so.

[wilsonl]

I backed Native River @ 93/1 (posted earlier in thread and in ante post comp) but win only as I needed 1. For him to make the race - at that time he hadn't run since his injury - and 2. The ground to be really testing.

If the ground is like that then he'll make them all go and will put any questionable jumping to the test, e.g. Champ.

In all probability he's likely to still find one or two too good though.