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  1. #661
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesRB View Post
    it's also unrealistic to expect a kauto/denman era anytime soon. denman at his peak is probably what you'd want from a horse going for a gold cup if you had your pick of any in the last 20 years and kauto was obviously a freak as well in his own way. you could be waiting 50+ years for two horses like that to appear at the same time in the same division at their peaks.
    But should we?

    Every time we have the Arkle argument on here people come on and say horses are better now, there's more competition, the breed has improved, etc etc, and they compare it with athletics in which record times are constantly being lowered.

    If that applied equally to horses we'd be looking for a 215 chaser every year.

    Yet we're still looking at horses rated around 170-175 and at the same time people are complaining that ratings on the whole have been artificially inflated in the last 20 years?

    Are our breeding programmes merely reinforcing mediocrity?
    Two's company, three's allowed.

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  3. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesRB View Post
    it's also unrealistic to expect a kauto/denman era anytime soon. denman at his peak is probably what you'd want from a horse going for a gold cup if you had your pick of any in the last 20 years and kauto was obviously a freak as well in his own way. you could be waiting 50+ years for two horses like that to appear at the same time in the same division at their peaks.
    Throw in Long Run and Imperial Commander as well.

  4. #663
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    We were definitely spoiled by the Kauto-Denman era. The norm is that the race usually bottoms a winner, and they rarely win a race thereafter. ABP has been well looked after, exactly to avoid that. The horses he has beaten have all been G1 winners - some multiple, like Bristol de Mai and Native River - but the consensus is this isn’t a vintage era. I think his victories will look better in years to come, and he certainly seems to have beaten more than Best Mate did in his GCs. He’s just one of those horses that is totally suited by the track at Cheltenham.

  5. #664
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post

    If that applied equally to horses we'd be looking for a 215 chaser every year.

    Yet we're still looking at horses rated around 170-175 and at the same time people are complaining that ratings on the whole have been artificially inflated in the last 20 years?

    There are currently 30 chasers rated 160 and above on BHA ratings. I wonder how many they had at that rating or above in a typical year in the mid/late 1960s. It can't have been anywhere near that number given the horse population at that time.

  6. #665
    Senior Member barjon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    But should we?

    Every time we have the Arkle argument on here people come on and say horses are better now, there's more competition, the breed has improved, etc etc, and they compare it with athletics in which record times are constantly being lowered.

    If that applied equally to horses we'd be looking for a 215 chaser every year.

    Yet we're still looking at horses rated around 170-175 and at the same time people are complaining that ratings on the whole have been artificially inflated in the last 20 years?

    Are our breeding programmes merely reinforcing mediocrity?
    Mmm, I know where my money, house, furniture and the lot would go if Arkle turned up on the 19th

  7. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by barjon View Post
    Aye, but thereís been plenty of long gaps between superstar champions being on the scene. Itís difficult to judge ABP since he only appears infrequently, but you can only beat whatís put in front of you. He may go down as the most under-rated champion in history! On the other hand, itís really time for another superstar to appear - canít see anyone but Champ filling that bill, but heíll need to perform wonders to do it.
    Champ is already a 9yo and has won just one G1 chase. This is his best (and possibly only) chance of winning a Gold Cup. He may win but he's not superstar material.
    The older I get the better I was.

  8. #667
    Senior Member barjon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie View Post
    Champ is already a 9yo and has won just one G1 chase. This is his best (and possibly only) chance of winning a Gold Cup. He may win but he's not superstar material.
    Aye, good point! Perhaps just for one year then

  9. #668
    Senior Member barjon's Avatar
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    Here’s my goodies in order from when I’ve been watching - superstars in capitals:

    ARKLE
    KAUTO STAR
    DENMAN
    MILL HOUSE
    L’Escargot
    Best Mate
    Desert Orchid
    Last edited by barjon; 5th March 2021 at 2:08 PM.

  10. #669
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barjon View Post
    Mmm, I know where my money, house, furniture and the lot would go if Arkle turned up on the 19th
    Ouch
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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  12. #670
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    There are currently 30 chasers rated 160 and above on BHA ratings. I wonder how many they had at that rating or above in a typical year in the mid/late 1960s. It can't have been anywhere near that number given the horse population at that time.
    I agree.

    It's more of a numbers game now, especially in Ireland.

    I suppose it's only natural that with a lot more horses around that there should be more at all ratings levels but shouldn't it also increase the chances of there being more 'superstars'? It doesn't seem to be happening.

    And are our 160-165 horses the equivalent of 150-155 horses of the 1960s but just harder trained in order to achieve more and therefore more likely to be fragile or not hold their form for as long?
    Two's company, three's allowed.

  13. #671
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post

    I suppose it's only natural that with a lot more horses around that there should be more at all ratings levels but shouldn't it also increase the chances of there being more 'superstars'? It doesn't seem to be happening.

    And are our 160-165 horses the equivalent of 150-155 horses of the 1960s but just harder trained in order to achieve more and therefore more likely to be fragile or not hold their form for as long?

    We have superstars or have had them but they haven't been running at the Gold Cup trip.
    Altior - 2 miler but I believe he may have run in a GC if he'd been with a different trainer
    Douvan - 2 miler
    Vautour - Should have run in a Gold Cup
    Sprinter Sacre - 2 miler

    I believe at the Gold Cup trip you have a ceiling of around 182/3 for the best winners. This may be a similar trend with the flat as the best of of those animals this century have run at less than 12f (Sea the Stars being higher rated over 10 even though he stayed 12)

    Floor wise you're looking at 161/2 - Lord Windermere.

    My belief is you had a higher floor in the 60s due likely to stouter pedigrees ( was there any proper top class 2 milers aside from Dunkirk in those days)
    but also a lower floor due to the way reduced horse population.

    That's where the silly ratings came from. Imo the worst GC winners would have been a 154/55 beast in those days and the top ones mid 190s. I think the teaboy at Timeform overated Arkle by about a stone.

  14. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    We have superstars or have had them but they haven't been running at the Gold Cup trip.
    Altior - 2 miler but I believe he may have run in a GC if he'd been with a different trainer
    Douvan - 2 miler
    Vautour - Should have run in a Gold Cup
    Sprinter Sacre - 2 miler

    I believe at the Gold Cup trip you have a ceiling of around 182/3 for the best winners. This may be a similar trend with the flat as the best of of those animals this century have run at less than 12f (Sea the Stars being higher rated over 10 even though he stayed 12)

    Floor wise you're looking at 161/2 - Lord Windermere.

    My belief is you had a higher floor in the 60s due likely to stouter pedigrees ( was there any proper top class 2 milers aside from Dunkirk in those days)
    but also a lower floor due to the way reduced horse population.

    That's where the silly ratings came from. Imo the worst GC winners would have been a 154/55 beast in those days and the top ones mid 190s. I think the teaboy at Timeform overated Arkle by about a stone.
    Was the champion chase ever really a target in the 60s? Think John Randall harps on about Dudley in the 20s. Remember the Racing Post did a list of the top 50 2m of all time and horses like Gods Own and Finians Rainbow made the cut. Kauto Star in the top 5 I think.
    Last edited by HawkWing; 5th March 2021 at 3:41 PM.

  15. #673
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    The Champion Chase was first run in 1959.
    The older I get the better I was.

  16. #674
    Senior Member tiggers1972's Avatar
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    Champion Chase is a better race than The Gold Cup.

  17. #675
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    It wouldn’t be a Road to the Gold Cup thread, without Himself getting a mention at some stage.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  18. #676
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    I think the teaboy at Timeform overated Arkle by about a stone.
    The cider was clearly in full flow
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  19. #677
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    It's probably been discussed but I cant find it.
    Why is Coleman on santini and nico on champ.

  20. #678
    Senior Member barjon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    It's probably been discussed but I cant find it.
    Why is Coleman on santini and nico on champ.
    When Santini ran at Sandown Henderson said Coleman was riding since he wanted to cover all bases in case Nico jumped ship to Champ. Presumably Nico has made the choice.

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  22. #679
    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    NH on Twitter

    Santini schooled with some headgear on yesterday and I can confirm he will wear a visor in the Gold Cup.
    "The owls are not what they seem"

  23. #680
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    Ricci just said Royale Pagaille goes here

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