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Thread: Epsom Derby 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkWing View Post
    Whatever about the jockeys not regarding serpentine, the disgrace was that the fancied horses couldn't get past khalifa sat and amhran na bhfian. If anything Marquand rode the rest to sleep having gambled that the 'pacemaker' would fold.
    Agree, other than the use of the word 'disgrace'.

    I would be curious to know the thoughts of sports psychologists. Is there such a phenomenon as collective misjudgment or anything like that? We get phenomena like mass hysteria and, in the case of aeroplane crash landings, the phenomenon in which passengers, in their attempts not to panic, don't move quickly enough and end up dying because they collectively misjudged the seriousness of their situation.

    I think that's what happened yesterday.

    I'll probably end up trying to rate Serpentine on a solo performance, probably against the clock and the others against each other collaterally.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 5th July 2020 at 8:59 AM.
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    DO, won't all the figures you get from this race have a huge question mark against them, at least until there is some confirmation of the brilliance, or not, of Serpentine's performance?
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    Safety Voyage set a course record in the Surrey Love's Oaks was a record for the race.

    Times were fast all day, means like the little in terms of assessing merit.

    The winner kicked off of a slow pace and benefitted from the market leaders either being non stayers or being way too far back.
    Sure, he kicked clear down the hill, but he also quickened away from them in the straight which marks it as a rock solid performance, imo, and he's likely to prove even better over the Leger trip; no surprise to see him underrated for yesterday, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Agree, other than the use of the word 'disgrace'.

    I would be curious to know the thoughts of sports psychologists. Is there such a phenomenon as collective misjudgment or anything like that? We get phenomena like mass hysteria and, in the case of aeroplane crash landings, the phenomenon in which passengers, in their attempts not to panic, don't move quickly enough and end up dying because they collectively misjudged the seriousness of their situation.

    I think that's what happened yesterday.

    I'll probably end up trying to rate Serpentine on a solo performance, probably against the clock and the others against each other collaterally.
    That's fair. I dont think it was a disgrace, should have put inverted commas around it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Phillips View Post
    DO, won't all the figures you get from this race have a huge question mark against them, at least until there is some confirmation of the brilliance, or not, of Serpentine's performance?
    Absolutely, Colin.
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  9. #106
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    Imo trying to take anything worthwhile from that race is about as much use as picking peanuts out of poo. Put a line through it...and carry on.
    Last edited by Danny; 5th July 2020 at 11:26 AM.
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    I've just had a quick look at the RPRs for the race.

    When, if ever, was the last time a five-lengths-plus Derby winner was rated only 121?

    When, if ever, was the last time a Derby runner-up was rated 112? Maybe Shergar's year because Shergar would probably have been rated around 130?

    Then I have to ask the question:

    Suppose Serpentine hadn't run and the race unfolded just as it did? Would the 'winner' be rated 112? Almost certainly not.

    The fourth to eighth were rated 119, 112, 110, 111, 112 with about three lengths between them. That would suggest a rating for the sixth of around 113. That still only puts the runner-up on 115, fully 16lbs higher than its OR. I would be uncomfortable with that but I'd also be uncomfortable rating ANY Derby runner-up as low as 115.

    It really is a puzzler but I can't do as Danny suggests and just move on. I'm much more anally retentive than that. I want to understand why the race unfolded as it did and what the true value of the form is.
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    Well done again to Outsider for backing it. If anyone was to find that it would be you Outsider.

    I hadn't even really looked at the horses form properly before it won. Just goes to show, you have to take all of Aidans chances seriously. Attention to detail and all that.

    He has won like a very good horse. Massively improved over 12F and entered the race in great form. With him being by Galileo sometimes that all it takes, or all the evidence you need before backing them.

    History has taught us that!
    Last edited by Marb; 5th July 2020 at 2:14 PM.

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    Kevin Blake's take on the race in his ATR blog:

    What really happened in the Derby and the Oaks?

    This year’s Derby looked to have everything on paper, but what we got was a conclusion that many seemed to find unsatisfactory. It is a rare spectacle to see a Derby that has been absolutely blown apart early in the straight, but that is what we saw on Saturday with the Aidan O’Brien-trained 25/1 shot Serpentine soon building up a significant lead and never at any stage looking likely to come back to the field, winning by 5½ lengths.

    So, what happened? Was it a farce? A fluke? Were all the jockeys in behind at fault? That seemed to be the gist of the general reaction after the race, but closer analysis reveals an altogether different interpretation of events.

    The beauty of having two Classics such as the Oaks and the Derby run over the same course and distance on the same day is that it very easy to make comparisons between the two. Indeed, it was a surprise not to see a side-by-side analysis of the two races conducted after the Derby, as doing so would have shown much of the post-race analysis to be misguided.

    Firstly, the notion that Serpentine was given a freebie in front whilst the two pace setters in the Oaks went far too fast is completely wrong. Why? Because side-by-side video analysis shows that they went almost an identical pace for much of the race.

    The leaders in both races were all-but upsides each other for the first five furlongs of each race. On the descent down the hill, the pace-setting fillies went approximately two lengths ahead of Serpentine and maintained that gap to the five-furlong pole. It was descending around Tattenham Corner that things changed, as by the time they hit the final road crossing approximately 750 yards from the finishing line, Serpentine had passed out the fillies and gone approximately five lengths in front of them.

    Thus, far from getting a freebie compared to the leaders in the Oaks, Serpentine got to the final road crossing approximately five lengths faster than them!

    Rounding Tattenham Corner, the bird, Serpentine, had already flown
    From the road crossing, things got very interesting. Serpentine did not stop as many expected him to and he galloped from there to the finish line in approximately 41.35 seconds which represents a finishing speed of approximately 107%. This is slower than the finishing speed par for the Derby of 111%, again reiterating that he did not get anything like a soft lead in front.

    The comparisons get even more interesting when one looks at what Love did in the closing stages of the Oaks. She ran the same closing sectional in 38.9 seconds which equates to a finishing speed of 113.6%.

    What this notably fast finish of Love also serves to illustrate is that the notion that Serpentine’s rivals faced an impossible task in chasing him down in the straight is also misguided.

    If one wishes to delve into the world of the theoretical and ask how Love would have fared if running the same race in the Derby as she did in the Oaks, it makes for an absolutely riveting conclusion.

    Had Love been in the Derby, she would have been towards the rear of the field in the early stages and steadily improved into mid-division in the chasing group by halfway. By the five-furlong pole, she would have had steadily improved to have been just in behind those that were leading the chasing pack. By the time she got to the road crossing at the top of the straight, Love would have been contesting second position upsides the eventual runner-up Khalifa Sat.

    From there, one of the most dramatic finishes in the history of theoretical races would have transpired, as having spotted Serpentine approximately 13 lengths into the straight, Love produced such a power-packed finish that she would have nailed Serpentine with 50 yards to run and beaten him by approximately two lengths.

    Bear in mind that in this hypothetical comparison Love would have carried the same weight as Serpentine (she would have received a 3lb sex allowance had she actually ran in the Derby) and it is also worth considering that Ryan Moore gave her far from a full drive in the Oaks, only using his stick once in the closing stages.

    I’ll leave it to my attheraces.com colleague Simon Rowlands to better hammer down and contextualise the finer details, when he tackles the race on Monday, of what was achieved by the winners of the Derby and Oaks. However, the basic analysis untaken above serves to debunk some of the more common theories put forward in the immediate aftermath of the race.

    To this analyst, Serpentine produced an excellent front-running performance. While he benefited from some lack of enterprise from his rival’s riders, it was perhaps more so the underperformance of much of his main opposition that led to the extent of his dominance on the day, but neither of those contributing factors are his fault. To devalue his performance or label it as a fluke is very unfair and indeed misguided. He will warrant respect wherever he goes from here.

    As for Love, her performance in the Oaks looks absolutely tremendous whichever way one chooses to assess it. As impressive as she was in the 1000 Guineas, she looked even better in the Oaks. A potential bid for the St Leger and/or the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe will all be considered, but whatever the trip, whatever the sex or age of her opposition, she will represent a very serious challenge for any horse going forward. Love is the real deal.

    Credit to Emmet McNamara

    Credit must also be given to Emmet McNamara. Coverage of his victory was inevitably dominated by comparisons to Padraig Beggy, another full-time member of the Ballydoyle that doesn’t take many rides, but has made a habit of popping up and springing surprises in Group 1 races. While they may be comparable in that regard, Emmet is his own man and deserves individual credit on the biggest day of his career.

    A son of the National Hunt trainer Eric McNamara, Emmet was crowned Champion Apprentice in Ireland in 2008, but increasing weight was anything but a help in his efforts to make the transition to the bigger stage. Having joined Ballydoyle six years ago, he popped up to win the Beresford Stakes on Port Douglas in 2015 and the Derrinstown Stud Derby Trial on Douglas Macarthur in 2017, but his Derby victory represents by far the biggest victory of his career.

    Just a week ago, McNamara came within a head of winning the Irish Derby on Tiger Moth. It was by far the closest he had ever come to winning a Group 1. If there was betting on such things, it would almost certainly have been odds-on that he would never come as close to winning a Classic again.

    He would have been forgiven as being only human for being on the floor after such an agonising loss. Less than a week later, he has won the Derby. What a game!

    Shades of Slip Anchor

    In terms of the response to the Derby, unsurprisingly there was a great amount of bemusement, frustration and indeed anger following the race. As Serpentine was a big price and very much an unexpected winner for most, many simply did not want to believe what they had seen, so the race and his performance were derided.

    Contrast this to the not-dissimilar winning performance of Slip Anchor when he was sent off as the 9/4 favourite for the 1985 renewal of the race. That was hailed as a brilliant ride, a spectacular performance and one of the most memorable renewals of the Derby.

    Odds and expectations are obviously a huge part of our sport, but just because an outcome wasn’t widely expected, that shouldn’t mean that it is fair game for automatic derision and scepticism.

    It isn’t the fault of the horse or their connections if they outperform our expectations of them. They deserve a fairer shake than they often get in the aftermath of such results.
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    July Cup next week. It never stops.

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    Oisin Murphy's post race analysis on Twitter very interesting, worth a listen/view.
    Vote Alfie!!!!

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    One fact that needs repeating is those Galileo horses do not stop; give them any lead and they will make you look very stupid.
    It happens time and again , the Derby was no different than Irish Derby last year and plenty of races in between.
    Everyone racing needs to wake up to that simple fact.

    Regarding the similarity with Slip Anchor's win ; how many watching that race would have bet that he would not win another race ?

    My guess is that there are five or six of APOB's rated in or around 120s , take your pick as to which is best but do not underestimate any of them.

    In the old days with 35 to 40 of any sire's progeny racing any season it was rare when the like of Hermit had a Derby 1-2-3 or Secreto/El Gran Senor had an all Northern Dancer photo finish in 1984.
    Now with 100 plus Galileos annually, most trained at Ballydoyle, these results are possible..
    Last edited by edgt; 5th July 2020 at 10:12 PM.

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    Simon Rowlands reiterates that Serpentine's Derby win is not to be sniffed at:
    https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sec...wn-the-derby-a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Kevin Blake's take on the race in his ATR blog:

    What really happened in the Derby and the Oaks?

    This year’s Derby looked to have everything on paper, but what we got was a conclusion that many seemed to find unsatisfactory. It is a rare spectacle to see a Derby that has been absolutely blown apart early in the straight, but that is what we saw on Saturday with the Aidan O’Brien-trained 25/1 shot Serpentine soon building up a significant lead and never at any stage looking likely to come back to the field, winning by 5½ lengths.

    So, what happened? Was it a farce? A fluke? Were all the jockeys in behind at fault? That seemed to be the gist of the general reaction after the race, but closer analysis reveals an altogether different interpretation of events.

    The beauty of having two Classics such as the Oaks and the Derby run over the same course and distance on the same day is that it very easy to make comparisons between the two. Indeed, it was a surprise not to see a side-by-side analysis of the two races conducted after the Derby, as doing so would have shown much of the post-race analysis to be misguided.

    Firstly, the notion that Serpentine was given a freebie in front whilst the two pace setters in the Oaks went far too fast is completely wrong. Why? Because side-by-side video analysis shows that they went almost an identical pace for much of the race.

    The leaders in both races were all-but upsides each other for the first five furlongs of each race. On the descent down the hill, the pace-setting fillies went approximately two lengths ahead of Serpentine and maintained that gap to the five-furlong pole. It was descending around Tattenham Corner that things changed, as by the time they hit the final road crossing approximately 750 yards from the finishing line, Serpentine had passed out the fillies and gone approximately five lengths in front of them.

    Thus, far from getting a freebie compared to the leaders in the Oaks, Serpentine got to the final road crossing approximately five lengths faster than them!

    Rounding Tattenham Corner, the bird, Serpentine, had already flown
    From the road crossing, things got very interesting. Serpentine did not stop as many expected him to and he galloped from there to the finish line in approximately 41.35 seconds which represents a finishing speed of approximately 107%. This is slower than the finishing speed par for the Derby of 111%, again reiterating that he did not get anything like a soft lead in front.

    The comparisons get even more interesting when one looks at what Love did in the closing stages of the Oaks. She ran the same closing sectional in 38.9 seconds which equates to a finishing speed of 113.6%.

    What this notably fast finish of Love also serves to illustrate is that the notion that Serpentine’s rivals faced an impossible task in chasing him down in the straight is also misguided.

    If one wishes to delve into the world of the theoretical and ask how Love would have fared if running the same race in the Derby as she did in the Oaks, it makes for an absolutely riveting conclusion.

    Had Love been in the Derby, she would have been towards the rear of the field in the early stages and steadily improved into mid-division in the chasing group by halfway. By the five-furlong pole, she would have had steadily improved to have been just in behind those that were leading the chasing pack. By the time she got to the road crossing at the top of the straight, Love would have been contesting second position upsides the eventual runner-up Khalifa Sat.

    From there, one of the most dramatic finishes in the history of theoretical races would have transpired, as having spotted Serpentine approximately 13 lengths into the straight, Love produced such a power-packed finish that she would have nailed Serpentine with 50 yards to run and beaten him by approximately two lengths.

    Bear in mind that in this hypothetical comparison Love would have carried the same weight as Serpentine (she would have received a 3lb sex allowance had she actually ran in the Derby) and it is also worth considering that Ryan Moore gave her far from a full drive in the Oaks, only using his stick once in the closing stages.

    I’ll leave it to my attheraces.com colleague Simon Rowlands to better hammer down and contextualise the finer details, when he tackles the race on Monday, of what was achieved by the winners of the Derby and Oaks. However, the basic analysis untaken above serves to debunk some of the more common theories put forward in the immediate aftermath of the race.

    To this analyst, Serpentine produced an excellent front-running performance. While he benefited from some lack of enterprise from his rival’s riders, it was perhaps more so the underperformance of much of his main opposition that led to the extent of his dominance on the day, but neither of those contributing factors are his fault. To devalue his performance or label it as a fluke is very unfair and indeed misguided. He will warrant respect wherever he goes from here.

    As for Love, her performance in the Oaks looks absolutely tremendous whichever way one chooses to assess it. As impressive as she was in the 1000 Guineas, she looked even better in the Oaks. A potential bid for the St Leger and/or the Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe will all be considered, but whatever the trip, whatever the sex or age of her opposition, she will represent a very serious challenge for any horse going forward. Love is the real deal.

    Credit to Emmet McNamara

    Credit must also be given to Emmet McNamara. Coverage of his victory was inevitably dominated by comparisons to Padraig Beggy, another full-time member of the Ballydoyle that doesn’t take many rides, but has made a habit of popping up and springing surprises in Group 1 races. While they may be comparable in that regard, Emmet is his own man and deserves individual credit on the biggest day of his career.

    A son of the National Hunt trainer Eric McNamara, Emmet was crowned Champion Apprentice in Ireland in 2008, but increasing weight was anything but a help in his efforts to make the transition to the bigger stage. Having joined Ballydoyle six years ago, he popped up to win the Beresford Stakes on Port Douglas in 2015 and the Derrinstown Stud Derby Trial on Douglas Macarthur in 2017, but his Derby victory represents by far the biggest victory of his career.

    Just a week ago, McNamara came within a head of winning the Irish Derby on Tiger Moth. It was by far the closest he had ever come to winning a Group 1. If there was betting on such things, it would almost certainly have been odds-on that he would never come as close to winning a Classic again.

    He would have been forgiven as being only human for being on the floor after such an agonising loss. Less than a week later, he has won the Derby. What a game!

    Shades of Slip Anchor

    In terms of the response to the Derby, unsurprisingly there was a great amount of bemusement, frustration and indeed anger following the race. As Serpentine was a big price and very much an unexpected winner for most, many simply did not want to believe what they had seen, so the race and his performance were derided.

    Contrast this to the not-dissimilar winning performance of Slip Anchor when he was sent off as the 9/4 favourite for the 1985 renewal of the race. That was hailed as a brilliant ride, a spectacular performance and one of the most memorable renewals of the Derby.

    Odds and expectations are obviously a huge part of our sport, but just because an outcome wasn’t widely expected, that shouldn’t mean that it is fair game for automatic derision and scepticism.

    It isn’t the fault of the horse or their connections if they outperform our expectations of them. They deserve a fairer shake than they often get in the aftermath of such results.
    Kevin Blake analysis is in the level of Luke HArvey and Zoey Bird

    The Derby winner was the best on the day by miles and his performance is better than Love,
    top horse and is not guilty of being 25/1 in the betting

    With the pedigree and the level he has shown he is the one to beat in any race he runs in coming weeks and months

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    Probably redundant to know and possibly silly question to ask but which horses who were early declared didn't turn up that if it had been a 'normal' year would have ( as best can be judged ) and of those that ran, how many were declared in the 'usual' early decs? Is there somewhere I could find out? Thank you muchly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    Kevin Blake analysis is in the level of Luke HArvey and Zoey Bird
    I think that's more than a bit harsh, sunybay. I've no idea who Zoey Bird is but to compare Blake to Harvey strikes me as deeply insulting. Blake has clearly reviewed the races in detail and has presented his findings in a cohesive argument regardless of how correct or otherwise future events might prove him to be.




    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    The Derby winner was the best on the day by miles and his performance is better than Love, top horse and is not guilty of being 25/1 in the betting.
    Surprisingly, for me, the one thing that nobody seems to be saying is that if Serpentine was slowing up in the final furlong or two then surely his performance should be marked up? If the sectionalistas would have us upgrade the likes of English King for not running entirely efficiently, surely Serpentine didn't run efficiently either by going too fast from five out to two out. Perhaps the respective inefficiencies in how they ran should cancel each other out and perhaps the result is a true reflection of the winner's superiority.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    With the pedigree and the level he has shown he is the one to beat in any race he runs in coming weeks and months
    My gut says this as well but maybe just in 3yo company. I'm not sure it's a good crop and would expect the best older horses to be harder to beat. Then again, he couldn't have had an easy race here and it remains to be seen how he recovers from it.
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    TBH, both Simon Rowlandsand Kevin Blake were non-committal on how good Serpentine's performance really was and hide their commitment behind the veil of sectionals, which leaves the race wide open to individual interpretation.
    I side with Suny in this; it was a special performance from what's likely to prove an exceptional horse - a view I'm prepared to stand by, based on no science other than good, old fashioned race-reading.
    Last edited by reet hard; 6th July 2020 at 8:35 PM.

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    I think the main problem was not that people were actually knocking what Serpentine did it was more that others weren't even put in the race. How you could say that Serpentine is exceptional when he's been beaten 2 lengths by a filly at levels doesn't sound right Reet even if you upgraded him for going a bit too fast through the mid section. If you were saying to me he was decent and a fair winner who may have won even if the others had been put in the race then fair enough but exceptional off the back of that ? No. I suppose we'll see as the season pans out but it wouldn't surprise me if he weren't ever to win another race. Where would he go next ? KG, Arc, Leger, Irish Champion stakes, Breeder cup ?
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    Kevin Blake really does talk a lot of bollocks much of the time .

    Serpentine is a beautifully bred , fast improving colt given an excellent ride but when Emmet Mc Namara took a breather coming down the hill none of the other jockeys even tried to close - shocking rides given by all but the jockeys on the front three IMO . You would have thought they would have learned their lesson after Sovereign in the Irish Derby last year . These horses are bred to be high class and to stay - they don’t stop .

    I almost expected Lester’s statue to have put one of his hands over his eyes.

    As for Slip Anchor watching the replay the other jockeys are trying to close coming down the hill they just could not get near - this lot did not even try.

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    Interestingly [imo], John Gosden agrees that Love is better than Serpentine.

    I almost said "agrees with me" there but, on reflection, will settle for "arrives at the same conclusion" as an interpretation of "agrees".

    On FB on Saturday morning I said it was possible we might get a superstar winning a poor race - or words to that effect - and I don't have a problem accepting that Serpentine was/is the best 3yo middle-distance colt, and probably by some way but I think the ones that ran in the Derby are moderate, an opinion I held before the race and one which I think the race itself justified.

    I wrote:

    Derby Day 2020. Sadly, it's behind closed doors so it will seem just another race. Equally sadly, for me, it's shaping up as a very substandard renewal but there's always the chance that a superstar will emerge. I can't get excited about any of the market leaders
    Illegitimi non carborundum


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