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Thread: Cheltenham Race Reviews

  1. #341
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Handful View Post
    In hindsight, Relegate was too short. But the money was down and the right people were on etc. And the Pertemps was a 24 runner H'Cap with probably the most plots in it of all festival races!

    The Marsh is a graded Novice chase, with plenty of true form on offer.

    They are not remotely comparable in terms of looking at the price/value of runners, like you're attempting to do here.

    And by doing that I feel you've gotten away from the point we were discussing, which was Itchy feet unseating in the Marsh.

    And imo even if he hadn't of unseated so early, I'd still have given him no chance of finishing in the first 3. And you're earlier posts suggest you thought his jumping was a concern, but had he stayed up, you think he had every chance of getting in the frame?

    I suppose we'll never know....... Until they meet again.
    Way too short given the first two in the field. Right people were on?

    The point I was making regards their prices was chance in relation to that price. So yes I would have preferred 5/1 on Itchy Feet than similar with Relegate, which I mentioned because of the debate had over the Pertemps race itself and how it unfolded.

    Yes with a clear round I thought he would be in the mix.
    Last edited by Frankel; 26th March 2020 at 6:47 PM.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  2. #342
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    You can **** off and all Mr Monkfish for the 4 miler...
    My work here is done.

    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

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  4. #343
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    There are some quite simply awful takes on this thread. Right or wrong I'll argue my point. It can be frustrating seeing people learn nothing from what happened at the festival , it's like am episode of Seinfeld.
    Correct!
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  5. #344
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    With the Kenny Everett proviso,



    As 10cc so memorably said, "agree to disagree if disagree you must" and move on.

    Everyone invests (not financially) in one/some horse(s) and will fight their corner with reasons/excuses/blind faith on why they were unsuccessful.

    For my part, I'd like to think that Put The Kettle On is a star because of Robin De Carlow. I have my doubts.
    Abacadabras is a two time loser and won't attract my money next year.
    Ronald Pump is rhyming slang.
    Shishkin may be the next Buveur D'Air.
    Relegate has been a dog/bitch from the early days. Barge-pole job.
    I never remotely considered backing Itchy Feet or Brewin'upastorm.

    Keep safe everyone and don't go stir crazy.
    Last edited by archie; 26th March 2020 at 7:23 PM.
    The older I get the better I was.

  6. #345
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie View Post
    With the Kenny Everett proviso,



    As 10cc so memorably said, "agree to disagree if disagree you must" and move on.

    Everyone invests (not financially) in one/some horse(s) and will fight their corner with reasons/excuses/blind faith on why they were unsuccessful.

    For my part, I'd like to think that Put The Kettle On is a star because of Robin De Carlow. I have my doubts.
    Abacadabras is a two time loser and won't attract my money next year.
    Ronald Pump is rhyming slang.
    Shishkin may be the next Buveur D'Air.
    Relegate has been a dog/bitch from the early days. Barge-pole job.
    I never remotely considered backing Itchy Feet or Brewin'upastorm.

    Keep safe everyone and don't go stir crazy.
    There is enough here to p1ss a few Off
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  7. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankel View Post
    There is enough here to p1ss a few Off
    If I can help somebody....
    The older I get the better I was.

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  9. #347
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie View Post
    If I can help somebody....
    I would rather actually be defending one I actually rate like Abacadabra. Beaten by two tools. His time will come.

    I see no mention of Kemboy on your list Archie
    Where do you stand with him now?
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  10. #348
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Was hoping for another bite archie!
    Come out and play
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  11. #349
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    Andy Holding’s Eyecatchers

    https://www.oddschecker.com/tips/hor...w-eye-catchers


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  13. #350
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archie View Post

    As 10cc so memorably said, "agree to disagree if disagree you must" and move on.
    There was nothing memorable about that band. They were ****

  14. #351
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Coming back to the Sire Du Berlais v Ronald Pump debate...

    I've put some figures on the festival and previous performances.

    I wouldn't say I was a 'fan' of either horse so have done this with no agenda to back-fit.

    I think it's fair to say that SDB was campaigned with the Final in mind whereas I'm not sure if RP had a definite target, or if it was originally the Final then they clearly overplayed their hand.

    It's entirely possible RP could have got into the final well enough handicapped to win or go very close.

    SDB didn't show anything like his real ability until the Final. A couple of jogs around, including at Leopardstown (regardless of how collateral form may appear), prior to what the Form Book noted was a big eyecatching run at Warwick which qualified him, looks like planning expertly executed. I would have to confess, though, that while I half-expected him to win the other week I wasn't sure he would find the requisite improvement against other obvious plots so wasn't sure if he was betting material.

    The Storyteller was just as big a plot but not as obvious as he'd risen to 160 over fences. Normally in my book that would make him potentially, if that's the right word, a 150 hurdler, which compared favourably to his last official mark of 142 back in Nov 17. I wonder if it was Davy Russell's idea to bring him back over hurdles but even his first run this season over them saw him bomb over in America. He then beat the 127-rated Mary Frances in what turned out to be a public gallop at Clonmel. That let the handicapper take him back to 142 at Leopardstown when he was allowed to jog on into a qualifying place in sixth (SDB behind). The UK handicapper decided that was enough to warrant a rating of 149, so not far off where he should have been based on his chase form.

    Ronald Pump was a big improver last season, ending it on 145 after a nice win in the novices' handicap final at Fairyhouse. With normal improvement he could have been expected to become at least a 155 horse this season and was duly put up to 156 for winning the Leopardstown qualifier, which also suggested he was still on a curve. He wouldn't have got into the Cheltenham race off 145, though. The handicapper would almost certainly have put him on 151 or 152. It turned out the UK handicapper put him up to 156. He clearly rated the Leopardstown race. He would need to be a 166+ horse to have any chance of placing in the Final, let alone winning it, and if he was going to have any chance of winning it he'd really only have Paisley Park to worry about in the Stayers'.

    Connections did the right thing in sending him for the stayers after Leopardstown but if he hadn't shown his hand there he could have got into the Final off that 151/152 mark.

    My figures for the two festival races are:

    Sire Du Berlais 163
    Ronald Pump 157

    Given the way the stayers' was run and that PP didn't run his race, there is every chance SDB would have run away with it as he would have been held up off the strong pace.

    Had RP run in the Final off 151 he would most likely have finished somewhere between The Storyteller and Tout Est Permis.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  15. #352
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    There was nothing memorable about that band. They were ****


    Which memorable band should have said it?
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  16. #353
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    There are some quite simply awful takes on this thread. Right or wrong I'll argue my point. It can be frustrating seeing people learn nothing from what happened at the festival , it's like am episode of Seinfeld.
    You haven't even learnt that there's no ******* 4 miler anymore.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

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  18. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Coming back to the Sire Du Berlais v Ronald Pump debate...

    I've put some figures on the festival and previous performances.

    I wouldn't say I was a 'fan' of either horse so have done this with no agenda to back-fit.

    I think it's fair to say that SDB was campaigned with the Final in mind whereas I'm not sure if RP had a definite target, or if it was originally the Final then they clearly overplayed their hand.

    It's entirely possible RP could have got into the final well enough handicapped to win or go very close.

    SDB didn't show anything like his real ability until the Final. A couple of jogs around, including at Leopardstown (regardless of how collateral form may appear), prior to what the Form Book noted was a big eyecatching run at Warwick which qualified him, looks like planning expertly executed. I would have to confess, though, that while I half-expected him to win the other week I wasn't sure he would find the requisite improvement against other obvious plots so wasn't sure if he was betting material.

    The Storyteller was just as big a plot but not as obvious as he'd risen to 160 over fences. Normally in my book that would make him potentially, if that's the right word, a 150 hurdler, which compared favourably to his last official mark of 142 back in Nov 17. I wonder if it was Davy Russell's idea to bring him back over hurdles but even his first run this season over them saw him bomb over in America. He then beat the 127-rated Mary Frances in what turned out to be a public gallop at Clonmel. That let the handicapper take him back to 142 at Leopardstown when he was allowed to jog on into a qualifying place in sixth (SDB behind). The UK handicapper decided that was enough to warrant a rating of 149, so not far off where he should have been based on his chase form.

    Ronald Pump was a big improver last season, ending it on 145 after a nice win in the novices' handicap final at Fairyhouse. With normal improvement he could have been expected to become at least a 155 horse this season and was duly put up to 156 for winning the Leopardstown qualifier, which also suggested he was still on a curve. He wouldn't have got into the Cheltenham race off 145, though. The handicapper would almost certainly have put him on 151 or 152. It turned out the UK handicapper put him up to 156. He clearly rated the Leopardstown race. He would need to be a 166+ horse to have any chance of placing in the Final, let alone winning it, and if he was going to have any chance of winning it he'd really only have Paisley Park to worry about in the Stayers'.

    Connections did the right thing in sending him for the stayers after Leopardstown but if he hadn't shown his hand there he could have got into the Final off that 151/152 mark.

    My figures for the two festival races are:

    Sire Du Berlais 163
    Ronald Pump 157

    Given the way the stayers' was run and that PP didn't run his race, there is every chance SDB would have run away with it as he would have been held up off the strong pace.

    Had RP run in the Final off 151 he would most likely have finished somewhere between The Storyteller and Tout Est Permis.
    For interest I went a pound lower for each Maurice. I have ++ against both though, although for slightly different reasons. I think they’re marks will be irrelevant though as I expect them both to be campaigned in graded company next season with the Stayers the target.

    Of the two, I’d expect Sire du Berlais to be the genuine challenger. His style will suit a truly run championship race. One of the new kids on the block (probably Thyne Hill) is bound to come through. Paisley Park is an unknown for now, and Lisnager Oscar has been underrated by most, but we should get a line on those two with Thyne Hill and the novice form in the first half of the season. Ronald Pump is one of those horses that will need to find some unexpected improvement, or I suspect more likely hope for a soft graded race. A nice horse for connections, but they may be better trying to sort out his kinks over fences while they have plenty of time with him.

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  20. #355
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Ronald Pump has had 16 hurdles outings, and has found his level. Don't know where you think any improvement is going to come from that would justify a ++, Maruco.

    The Stayers remains a turd of a race, and all of the principals are massively vulnerable next season, imo.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  21. #356
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    17 days later and still talking about Ronald Pump.

    Where did I put that two for one Woodies rope...

  22. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Ronald Pump has had 16 hurdles outings, and has found his level. Don't know where you think any improvement is going to come from that would justify a ++, Maruco.

    The Stayers remains a turd of a race, and all of the principals are massively vulnerable next season, imo.
    What a daft post.

    Ronald Pump has gone from a mark of 102 to 160+ in just over 12 months, but you don't know or aren't sure where more improvement might come from? Logic tells you he can keep improving, based on what he has been doing, surely?

    I find the idea a dual Pertemps Hurdle winner who was plotted for the race on each occasion is going to step up in to graded company next season and wipe the floor with graded animals far more far fetched. If anything it's Sire who has reached his peak.

    I'd be much more worried about JP's lightly raced Coral Cup winner, Dame De Compagnie, in terms of a likely staying hurdle champion coming through the ranks. She looked like an absolute beast. Any mare who can do that on just her eight start over hurdles is one hell of a horse to look forward to.
    Last edited by Marb; 29th March 2020 at 12:16 PM.

  23. #358
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    RP is rated 159 (not 160+) after being beaten 2L by a horse rated 146 going into the Stayers. This tells me all I need to know about how shabby an event it was for a G1, given the favourite (miles clear of the rest on form), clearly didn't run his race.

    Dame De Compagnie is a mare, not a "he".

    No faulting your post for accuracy or fanboyism though.

    Fill your boots whenever he runs next, if you want to learn the hard/expensive way.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 29th March 2020 at 12:18 PM.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  24. #359
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    Yes I think the only part I agree with others on is that Lisnagar Oscar winning does make the form look less attractive on paper.

    I do admire how a horse like Ronald Pump has improved the way he has. He hasn't got that much to find to win it next year I hope.

    I don't usually back horses months out for a race but I just had a look at the early prices for next years stayers and fair play to the layers for offering 20's.

    He is still only a 7yo. If he was trained by a Mullins or Henderson he'd be half the price he is now for the Stayers 2021.
    Last edited by Marb; 29th March 2020 at 12:34 PM.

  25. #360
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Age is immaterial when you have had this many runs.

    I remember hearing the same ‘will improve’ arguments made about 6yo Kasbah Bliss, when he’d already had approaching 20 hurdles starts.

    Back him if you want. I’ll be looking elsewhere, for something that is less exposed and genuinely progressive.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

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