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Thread: Cheltenham Race Reviews

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    I don't care for sectionals. They seem to be used where they suit people. I've seen an interview with Davy since admitting he gave the horse too much to do.
    Imo,NH sectionals are iffy, at best, but watching the race back they clearly didn't go much of a gallop for the first circuit, and speed had more effect on the closing stages than stamina.
    Last edited by reet hard; 6th April 2020 at 2:18 AM.

  2. #422
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    This is the problem of writing in the forum

    One says the pace was not strong because the jockey told it to a friend in a pub

    then come another says the same because he has watched the race again and he thinks so

    It doent matter what the clock says.....

    On the positive side , it is good so many people dont want to buy the sectionals, do it or understand it,

  3. #423
    Senior Member simmo's Avatar
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    Fwiw I listened to the race on BBC radio and the commentator initially said that envoi Allen looked like he was in trouble.

  4. #424
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Ballymore v Coral Cup

    From the last to the line, Dame De Compagnie was two seconds (about 10 lengths) faster than Envoi Allen.

    How many racing diehards would have watched the two races and come to the conclusion that DDC was ten lengths faster than EV from the last?

    For me, the conclusion is that the Ballymore was a very solidly run race whereas the Cup was a jog and sprint from the run towards the stands first time round, only quickening up seriously from two out.

    I suspect these splits suggest that Russell, for all I thought maybe the horse got him out of being too far off the lead approaching the home turn, probably judged the pace very well.
    Since suny bay brought us back round to sectionals, I thought I'd check back for my own conclusions from earlier in the thread.
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  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    This is the problem of writing in the forum

    One says the pace was not strong because the jockey told it to a friend in a pub

    then come another says the same because he has watched the race again and he thinks so

    It doent matter what the clock says.....

    On the positive side , it is good so many people dont want to buy the sectionals, do it or understand it,
    I'm only too happy to bet against punters like you using sectionals.
    Last edited by Slim; 6th April 2020 at 3:56 PM.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    This is the problem of writing in the forum

    One says the pace was not strong because the jockey told it to a friend in a pub

    then come another says the same because he has watched the race again and he thinks so

    It doent matter what the clock says.....

    On the positive side , it is good so many people dont want to buy the sectionals, do it or understand it,
    And nobody said anything about the pace. I said that Davy Russell admitted he had the horse badly positioned and thr horse got him out of trouble.
    Last edited by Slim; 6th April 2020 at 4:07 PM.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Since suny bay brought us back round to sectionals, I thought I'd check back for my own conclusions from earlier in the thread.
    Then, how do you explain EA's low t/s figure (115)? Or was the pace so fierce, he ran stones below what you'd expect him to?

  8. #428
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    And nobody said anything about the pace. I said that Davy Russell admitted he had the horse badly positioned and thr horse got him out of trouble.
    the more you write , the worst for your case

  9. #429
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    I'm only too happy to bet against punters like you using sectionals.

    next step is the weight for age

    and the gravity law


  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    the more you write , the worst for your case
    Matter of opinion. If we all agreed on everything there would be no betting markets. I do love the moral high ground of sectional advocates. Sometimes your eyes tell you more than the numbers.

  11. #431
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    I would be reluctant to attribute 'moral high ground' to either side.

    Sectionals aren't the be all and end all. They're merely another useful means of verifying either what your eyes tell you or what your reading of the form tells you, or even of what a jockey or pundit reckons is the case.

    Oh, and they're also very useful for contradicting what your eyes or form-reading tell you.

    At least that's how I take them.

    But I do firmly believe they are a very useful tool to have in your box.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 6th April 2020 at 9:59 PM.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post

    But I do firmly believe they are a very useful tool to have in your box.
    Betting is all about having an array of weapons in your arsenal. Anyone depending on one or two will struggle to make money. And let's be honest here whether Russell gave this the worst ride or best ride of all time makes zero difference. We all came away from the race thinking Envoi Allen should have no doubters left.

  13. #433
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    We all came away from the race thinking Envoi Allen should have no doubters left.
    Yes, all of us did.

    It was a tremendous impression he created.

    What sectionals do is help put that impression within a wider context and help to quantify it. A sharp observer can maybe quantify it innately or instinctively. Sectionals allow us to put a figure on it.
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  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Yes, all of us did.

    It was a tremendous impression he created.

    What sectionals do is help put that impression within a wider context and help to quantify it. A sharp observer can maybe quantify it innately or instinctively. Sectionals allow us to put a figure on it.
    What's the last horse you can think of that made this sort of an impression as a novice?

  15. #435
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Shishkin the day before, given all the trouble he had in running yet got there relatively easily.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Shishkin the day before, given all the trouble he had in running yet got there relatively easily.
    https://twitter.com/TheAldorithm/sta...557654531?s=20

    Monster time performance according to this Twitter account.

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  18. #437
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    and here is a time guy with a differing opinion about the Ballymore sectionals. Which just goes to show my point that people use sectionals to paint whatever narrative they want.

    https://twitter.com/JinksMarmaduke/s...372482052?s=20
    Last edited by Slim; 6th April 2020 at 10:33 PM.

  19. #438
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Is he basing that on sectionals or just visuals?

    I think my first impression was along very similar lines, also based on visuals and probably the assumption that since the second and third had cut it out but were still there they must have gone just an even pace.

    It was only when I looked at the sectionals that I realised that the pace had been over-strong through the race. The second and third can be marked up for staying ahead of the rest. All three are clearly very high class.
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  20. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    and here is a time guy with a differing opinion about the Ballymore sectionals. Which just goes to show my point that people use sectionals to paint whatever narrative they want.

    https://twitter.com/JinksMarmaduke/s...372482052?s=20
    But has Concertista 20lbs higher?

  21. #440
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Is he basing that on sectionals or just visuals?

    I think my first impression was along very similar lines, also based on visuals and probably the assumption that since the second and third had cut it out but were still there they must have gone just an even pace.

    It was only when I looked at the sectionals that I realised that the pace had been over-strong through the race. The second and third can be marked up for staying ahead of the rest. All three are clearly very high class.
    Problem is all the sectional/time guys have different opinions on the race so the idea that the data is the data is simply not true.

    Andy Holding:

    Wednesday March 11
    Ballymore Novices' Hurdle – The Big Getaway
    Ultimately, Envoi Allen ended up being an extremely impressive winner of this Grade 1 event, but some of the plaudits should also be afforded to Willie Mullins’ gelding for making it such a stern test and ensuring the winner worked harder than his pre-race price suggested.

    Arriving at the Festival following a victory at a fairly low level at Naas, it was difficult to gauge what the son of Getaway would be capable of achieving in a much tougher environment, but he rose to the challenge in spectacular fashion and he is very much one for the future. Although fading late on, his early fractions meant the race was run in one of the fastest furlong-per-furlong times of the entire week and considering this was achieved by a horse who ostensibly is a three-mile chaser in the making, his career path is definitely worth monitoring closely.

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