Is two and a half miles a specialist championship distance?

[Bachelors Hall]

Maybe it's just me and I don't want to discourage posting but if a post goes beyond 8 lines, I can't follow it

That's fair enough. If I write in essay form, it is so that my points are explained and supported by evidence. Some will appreciate this style while others will lose interest very quickly. I fall into both camps depending on the topic and my energy levels.

If it helps, here are brief summaries in bullet-point form.

*Quevega can be lauded for consistency and soundness but her winning multiple mares' hurdles carries less kudos than had she taken on the boys.

*Novice races are good.

*We can not be certain of how others might have behaved in purely hypothetical circumstances.

*Just as most flat horses have a stamina range of two furlongs or greater, jumps horses have a range of at least half a mile.

*It is unlikely The New One would have been champion twenty furlong horse three years in a row as he would have needed to repeatedly beat a bunch of horses more talented than himself.

*There is no such thing as a specialist twenty furlong champion. Not even among the 422 horses who could possibly fit the bill.

*I have named 38 horses who would have plausibly started at 10/1 or shorter in a Champion Chase or Gold Cup the year they were in the Ryanair.

[Bachelors Hall]

Apologies for bumping this thread but it provides context for the bee running riot in my bonnet.

Since my posts on this matter, interim events have further supplemented my utter disgust with the hosting of the Ryanair and the Mares' Hurdle at the Cheltenham Festival.

Even after winning the Tingle Creek, the hot Champion Chase favourite Defi du Seuil had the Ryanair as his preferred option. It was only after reaffirming his position as the best active British two-miler of the season that he's now heading for the Champion Chase. This season's other Grade One winning chaser, A Plus Tard, will likely head for the Ryanair. The favourite for that race is genuine championship-class two miler Min whose best twenty furlong effort came when running freely and making all on the bowling green flat Aintree to win from a field who all under-performed. Next in the betting is the hugely admirable Grade Two level Frodon followed by Riders Onthe Storm who has a lot of "Gold Cup" in his pedigree. Maybe at seven, he's a little young although that didn't stop Best Mate, Kicking King, Kauto Star, Sizing John, Al Boum Photo or his own relative War Of Attrition. Then you have Cyrname who ironically could potentially be one of the incredibly rare animals who satisfies that achingly simple criteria of a genuine twenty furlong champion - but he's unlikely to actually run in the race.

The Mares' Hurdle betting is currently headed by Benie des Dieux - who by virtue of her Auteuil and Gowran Park demolition jobs is the biggest threat to Paisley Park - and Honeysuckle - favourite for next weekend's Irish Champion Hurdle. Next in the market for this Grade One is Grade Three mare Stormy Ireland followed by Roksana, the current linchpin of If The Cap Fits' Stayers' Hurdle credentials.

I am honestly open to being persuaded that neither the Ryanair nor the Mares' Hurdle negatively impact the traditional championship races at the festival. Granted, one would need to prove that form, ratings, distances, relative merits etc are utterly superfluous gimmicks to understanding horse racing but if it is done then I would be impressed as appropriate. In fact, there would be no more vociferous champion for a two mile four hurdle at future festivals than myself.

On a similar train of thought, since the relentless degradation of the Champion Chase, Gold Cup, Champion Hurdle and Stayers Hurdle shows no sign of ever abating, might it be an idea to bestow the term "Championship" on the races where the best horses in such a division actually meet rather than avoid one another? Races such as the King George, Tingle Creek usually attract decent Irish horses although can't think of many hurdles which consistently attract the best from across the water. If only the big four at the festival weren't compromised by races which should either be held at other meetings (mares meeting in April) or simply not exist since the Melling Chase renders the Ryanair redundant.

[Double J]

Ryanair I agree with, for the simple fact Vautour ran in it over the Gold Cup. It’s all I’ve known though as I’ve only followed racing for the last few years.

Does make my blood boil though, not seeing the best vs the best because they have ‘easier’ options. Especially the Mares. Would never have seen Annie Power bolt up in the Chanpion if it wasn’t for Faugheen getting injured. Should have just elite races, cut out this middle distance shite, or move them to other cards.

Only set to get worse an all as we have a ‘Mares Chase’ to look forward to next year. I’m hoping it’s a handicap to try and stop the better Mares going for it.

Excellent post

[Slim]

The festival will never throw up the races it should any more. It's time to just accept that.

[Grey]

The introduction of a separate programme for mares, not just at Cheltenham but throughout the year, has brought about a big increase in the number and standard of mares in training. There have often been one or two good ones around, but never in the numbers we have been seeing in the last ten years or so. Without these races most of them would be off to stud instead.

[archie]

How many years history does a race have to have before it becomes 'traditional'?

[granger]

How many years history does a race have to have before it becomes 'traditional'?

Possibly needs to throw up a good clash that allows people to easily reminisce

[Bachelors Hall]

The festival will never throw up the races it should any more. It's time to just accept that.

Acceptance is a cornerstone of one's psychological and spiritual wellbeing and I am happy to say that this is not an issue likely to preoccupy my thoughts during any proverbial wedding night or the likes. Nevertheless, exercising one's right to critique is a valid endeavour and I happen for find it very disappointing that the sport's definitive championships are cannibalising themselves for no good reason. It is akin to hosting the Champions League Final and the World Cup Final or the Ashes and the CWC final on the same day. I do not believe any other sport employs such a profoundly nonsensical method of determining its champions. The Cheltenham Festival will not lose any of its lustre for excreting the Ryanair or Mares' Hurdle as it was already the sports zenith some fifteen years ago. While this critique will not make the slightest bit of difference in the grand scheme of things, it is better out than in.

The introduction of a separate programme for mares, not just at Cheltenham but throughout the year, has brought about a big increase in the number and standard of mares in training. There have often been one or two good ones around, but never in the numbers we have been seeing in the last ten years or so. Without these races most of them would be off to stud instead.

I think the mares programme is a fantastic initiative and am generally optimistic about the way it is developing. Having the Lady Protectress compete with the Yorkshire Rose was a bit silly but overall, it is a good idea which deserves a solid execution. However, having the best mares races compete with the best open races is not the way to go about things as once again, the best horses will be diverted from one another. Case in point, today's impressive winner, Maire Banrigh, would have any number of races to choose from once more mares races are added to the festival which is unfair to any race in which she does not compete.

What would be so wrong with turning the mares' day at the April meeting to a mares' championships? Have a chase, a hurdle, a couple of novices, a couple of handicaps and a bumper. It would attract the best performing mares from the festival, while affording them a further valuable end of season target. The best competing against the best at both the festival and on mares day.

How many years history does a race have to have before it becomes 'traditional'?

Traditional is not necessarily the issue at hand and I use the term as a collective for the four established championship races. The matter at hand is more one of utility. The Lancashire Chase isn't exactly steeped in tradition but it has definitely fulfilled a purpose which was previously served by the Edward Hanmer to diminishing degrees.

[Desert Orchid]

Maybe it's just me and I don't want to discourage posting but if a post goes beyond 8 lines, I can't follow it

You must have hated my weekly bulletins, granger

I have no issue with the length of a post; how could I when I myself am very much a sinner and not in a position to cast stones.

If a post is well written - as BH's invariably are - its length is largely irrelevant. It will be a good read irrespective of whether one agrees with it.

I haven't been following the thread at all, to be honest, but wouldn't want to discourage anyone from contributing just because they have plenty to say.

(Even managed to keep it to eight lines )