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Thread: Is two and a half miles a specialist championship distance?

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    Senior Member Bachelors Hall's Avatar
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    Is two and a half miles a specialist championship distance?

    When considering this weekend's races at Ascot along with the Hatton's Grace and Punchestown Chase on the horizon, I asked myself the question in the title. I think top class races at the intermediate distance can make for fascinating contests as they can bring together the best speedsters and the best stayers in the sport. And therein lies my musing since the evidence suggests that two and a half miles is a catch-distance rather than a speciality.

    At the highest level, racehorses tend to be rather versatile insofar as distance is concerned. The legends (Dawn Run, Desert Orchid, Kauto Star etc) were capable of winning both Champion Chases and Gold Cups but a matter of half a mile will make little difference to most championship standard horses. A Champion Chaser ought to have the class for the extra four furlong while a three miler will still have the pace to be competitive at twenty furlongs. Were there any such thing as a champion twenty furlong horse, it would almost always be beaten at that distance by a two or three miler stepping up or down in trip.

    The following are the horses who put RPRs of 173 or greater at intermediate distances since 2007/08;- Balko Des Flos, Captain Chris, Cyrname, Cue Card, Djakadam, Don Cossack, Exotic Dancer, Fox Norton, Frodon, Kauto Star, Master Minded, Min, Politologue, Sizing John, Sprinter Sacre, Uxizandre, Vautour and Voy Por Ustedes. With the exception of Cyrname who dictated the pace to win the Grade 2 Wayward Lad Novices' Chase, and Frodon who won the Cotswold Chase, all of these horses have finished in the first two in either a two or three mile Grade 1 - many have done so at both.

    Taken more broadly, I have looked at the winners of the six more prominent intermediate races from the past forty years where there are corresponding races over chases and hurdles- 1965 Chase, Ascot Hurdle, Hatton's Grace, Punchestown Chase, Aintree Hurdle, Melling Chase. The following have three or more wins;- Al Eile, Apple's Jade, Danoli, Dawn Run, Istabraq, Limestone Lad, Master Minded, Morley Street, Native Upmanship, Oscar Whisky and Solerina. These horses seemingly fall into two categories - they are championship standard at two miles, three miles or both, or they are just shy of top class. Al Eile appears to be an exception as he bested both Inglis Drever and Macs Joy in the 2005 Aintree Hurdle. Nevertheless, he was still fast enough to win a Haydock Champion Hurdle Trial and a December Festival Hurdle and bizarrely, the only time he was ever tried beyond twenty furlongs was on the flat so it is entirely plausable that he could have been even better over three miles. This pattern is maintained when expanding the sample to include horses placed on more than three occasions in the aforementioned races such as Albertas Run, Bobsline, Brave Inca, Deep Sensation, Dorans Pride, Gaye Brief, Hardy Eustace, Merry Gale, Rock On Ruby, Royal Bond, Sabin Du Loir, Strong Promise and Supasundae.

    This is not to suggest there are not horses who are better at twenty furlongs than at two or three miles. Nevertheless, I am of the opinion that a requisite amount of class is required to compete at the championship level and it is a class which translates into a demonstration of speed, stamina or both. You can get specialists like Young Snugfit or Sanctuaire who were all about the speed or real stayers like Native River or Bonanza Boy. However, I do not believe that at the championship level, you get specialist two and a half milers. Those considered to be an intermediate specialist will typically be slow horses which do not stay which isn't conducive to producing the highest levels of form. Indeed, the solitary exception I can think of is Blazing Walker and that's on account of a Melling Chase performance which exceeded all of his other efforts by nine pounds.

    So to surmise, my answer to my question is no. I thoroughly enjoy intermediate distance races as they serve a fascinating and often informative purpose (with the profound exceptions of the festival's Ryanair Chase and the Mare's Hurdle). Nevertheless, I would be happy to hear differing opinions or elaborations on my own.

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    Intermediate trips could be of interest for some kind of match bet

    The best 2 miler v the best 3 miler over 2m6f

    Staying hurdling for example is just not a race people relish but put Big bucks in against Hurricane Fly over an intermediate trip and you have box office

    I hate the effect that the intermediate trip has had on the Arkle

    I don't mind it as much for the Ryanair as generally speaking the horses who bypass 2 miles are not good enough to win it and their form is well advertised by the stage the race occurs
    Last edited by granger; 22nd November 2019 at 2:26 PM.
    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

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    It all depends on how it dilutes the other races. I think the JLT is more disruptive than the Ryanair for example

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    Agree the Ryanair doesn’t usually attract horses capable of winning a Champion Chase or a Gold Cup (with a few exceptions Vautour and Un de Sceaux come to mind) but the JLT has horribly diluted the Arkle.
    It would have been good to see Defi in the Arkle this year and LostinTranslation in the RSA for example


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    This is peculiar since I take the opposite views regarding the Ryanair and the JLT.

    I'm not going to deny that the JLT dilutes the Arkle to some extent but the novice season affords experimentation and lacks the prestige of the senior events. I would not be too sad to see the back of it but compared to the Ryanair, its crimes are minimal.

    The Ryanair persistently (the rule rather than the exception) draws potential winners from the Champion Chase and the Gold Cup and if not winners then horses that would have been competitive in either event. At best, the Champion Chase and Gold Cups will lack strength in depth because of connections plumping for the easier, consolation option. Instead of beating the top five in the division in order to establish its supremacy, champions are beating more average sorts overall in order to be crowned. The absurdity is further compounded by the fact that favourites do not win the Champion Chase and Gold Cup every year which leads one to wonder how many unheralded champions were lost to the Ryanair. I have gone into greater detail elsewhere and save for matters of welfare, the destructive pointlessness of the Ryanair is the hill I am willing to die on. I can prove that the Ryanair is an abomination but for now, that may derail from the original question regarding the validity of the intermediate distance as a speciality in and of itself.

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    I would suggest that Hendo's intentions regarding Altior answer the question, at least in the eyes of connections.

    He's stepping him up with a view to the King George and possibly Gold Cup - in which both could see his stamina stretched to the limit - and nowhere in his comments to date as he suggested stepping him up in trip to dominate the 2.5 mile division.

    From what we've seen thus far, Altior looks a prime 20f horse but he's never been campaigned as one.

    He only used to moan about not having a 2.5 mile championship hurdle race at the festival because Oscar Whisky didn't stay the 3 miles. If he did he'd have taken that option rather than the intermediate race regardless.

    I like the Ryanair (not so much the JLT) but it still comes across as a consolation race, as demonstrated by the preferred target for both Vatour and Frodon until last minute decisions.
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    I quite like the intermediate distance myself, perfect for the 'Inbetween' horses.

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    I absolutely love the 'middle' distance races and think generally they are not given the same prestige as the 2 milers or 3 miler plus. There are a huge number of very good horses who have really good careers at this distance and it doesn't seem to be recognised/given same credit as the others.
    Vote Alfie!!!!

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    Senior Member simmo's Avatar
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    When I first got into racing there were a few horses that needed the option of an intermediate distance at the festival but as there was no Ryanair they had to go gold cup. I'm thinking specifically of Dublin flyer - who was some lepper.

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    The issue with the Ryanair is that it is not presented as the consolation race it ought to be. Making it a Grade 2 supporting contest which gives the "inbetweener" types a chance to shine is not something I would begrudge. However, it is a Grade 1 contest which offers more prize money than the Stayers' Hurdle on the same day which creates the false impression that it is a championship race. If a favourites' chance in a Grade 1 at the festival is more enticing than a fighting chance in a Champion Chase or a Gold Cup then a problem has been created.

    Furthermore, to counter the point that it does not dilute the Champion Chase, here is the head of the Ryanair market
    Defi Du Seuil 6/1
    Chacun Pour Soi 10/1
    Min 10/1
    Douvan 10/1
    Footpad 12/1
    Cyrname 12/1
    Altior 14/1

    and here is the Champion Chase market
    Chacun Pour Soi 4/1
    Altior 5/1
    Defi Du Seuil 10/1
    Cilaos Emery 14/1
    Douvan 14/1
    Min 14/1

    I have not typed out the same list twice in error. What I have typed is a foreboding of the carnage that lies ahead for the Champion Chase field. If a horse can be rightfully considered as a contender in the Champion Chase then it is not an "inbetweener". If it has no pretensions of being fast enough for a Champion Chase then it ought to have enough class to carry it the Gold Cup trip. If it absolutely does not then it is bereft of a championship attribute and can then be considered an "inbetweener". Usually a horse about ten lengths off the best and extremely vulnerable to a champion stepping up or down in trip to meet it at the intermediate distance.

    As I say, there is definitely a place for an intermediate programme. Not only does it afford the opportunity for fast and classy horses to meet at a mutually convenient distance but it also allows Grade 2 class animals to compete in weight for age contests. It is nice that popular horses such as Al Ferof, Captain Chris and Riverside Theatre are able to collect valuable prizes. However, while that type of horse might become a champion in the sentimental sense of the word, they could not accused of being champions in a pound for pound, best in the country sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simmo View Post
    When I first got into racing there were a few horses that needed the option of an intermediate distance at the festival but as there was no Ryanair they had to go gold cup. I'm thinking specifically of Dublin flyer - who was some lepper.
    A spectacular jumper who could set a fierce gallop and knew how to power up the Cheltenham hill. Not to doubt the Captain but it baffles me as to why he wasn't mixing it up with the likes of Viking Flagship, Sound Man and Martha's Son.

    In a similar vein, after it transpired that One Man did not stay the Gold Cup trip, he found his glory at two miles. How awful would it have been for the legacy of that great horse if he had settled for a Ryanair instead of a winning Queen Mother Champion Chase?

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    One man is a fair call, though I'd also admit to backing Florida pearl to carry off the feat.

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    You would not have ruled out Florida Pearl over two miles and I think that ties in with my broader assertion that the best horses will be competitive at two miles, three miles and often both. War Of Attrition ran Brave Inca to a neck in the Supreme. Kicking King was just a length behind Well Chief in an Arkle - a race also won by My Way De Solzen. Annie Power probably would have preceded her Champion Hurdle with a Stayers' Hurdle if she just settled a little better. The aforementioned legends in Dawn Run, Desert Orchid and Kauto Star would have won all but the best renewals of any championship race at Cheltenham.

    My point as it pertains to the subject is that between the pure speedballs and the dourest stayers, every championship class horse at two or three is a two and a half miler by default. As such, the division does not lend itself to specialists who would be superior to the best at the established championship distances.
    Last edited by Bachelors Hall; 22nd November 2019 at 7:47 PM.

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    Number of runners in the QM/Ryanair/Gold Cup:

    2002 12/-/18
    2003 11/-/15
    2004 9/-/10
    Ryanair starts as G2
    2005 8/12/15
    2006 12/11/22
    2007 10/9/18
    Ryanair becomes G1
    2008 8/9/12
    .
    .
    2018 9/6/15
    2019 9/12/16

    Not much evidence there that the QM or GC are being starved of runners.
    The older I get the better I was.

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    Ryanair can be a useful stepping stone race for a future GC horse

    Vautour in 2016 is as good a spectacle of racing as you'll see

    Archies point 're the actual stats.

    There are plenty of horses to be divided about but it would be hard to argue that the 2 premier races would not have been more intriguing with a bit of Ryanair spice
    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

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    Imperial Commander went on to the Gold Cup.
    Cue Card was competitive in Gold Cups.
    Vautour could have won a Gold Cup.
    Un De Sceaux close to a Champion Chase.

    Only 4 of 15 Ryanair winners even make a dent on the Champion Chase or Gold Cup.
    The older I get the better I was.

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    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by granger View Post
    Staying hurdling for example is just not a race people relish but put Big bucks in against Hurricane Fly over an intermediate trip and you have box office
    Would have been fun watching Bucks toying with Fly!
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankel View Post
    Would have been fun watching Bucks toying with Fly!
    Do one
    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

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    Quote Originally Posted by granger View Post
    Ryanair can be a useful stepping stone race for a future GC horse
    If only there was a two mile five furlong Grade 2 chase for second season chasers...

    Quote Originally Posted by granger View Post
    Vautour in 2016 is as good a spectacle of racing as you'll see
    Such a spectacle should not be heavily tainted with lament. Instead of watching him win the Gold Cup, we saw him beat two stayers in a tepid race. A horse winning a novice chase at Sedgefield can be tremendously spectacular but it is not as engrossing as something like Sprinter Sacre winning a Champion Chase.

    Quote Originally Posted by granger View Post
    Archies point 're the actual stats.
    The actual stats which are utterly irrelevant to the point that the Champion Chase and Gold Cup are being diluted. The Champion Chase fields have actually increased from an average of 8.89 to 9.42 which supports the contention that the fields have been diluted with lower quality horses making up the numbers. The Gold Cup has gone from 14.26 to 13.08 which can also be used to suggest either that the Ryanair is drawing runners from the Gold Cup or that lesser horses are making up the shortfall. In either case, the actual actual stats do not work in your favour.

    Quote Originally Posted by granger View Post
    There are plenty of horses to be divided about but it would be hard to argue that the 2 premier races would not have been more intriguing with a bit of Ryanair spice
    It is not a spice which compliments the festival dish, it's a gale force fart which spills tasty treats off the plate and leaves a nasty smell.

    Quote Originally Posted by archie View Post
    Imperial Commander went on to the Gold Cup.
    Cue Card was competitive in Gold Cups.
    Vautour could have won a Gold Cup.
    Un De Sceaux close to a Champion Chase.

    Only 4 of 15 Ryanair winners even make a dent on the Champion Chase or Gold Cup.
    You are only using winners and even then, one is more than enough to cause alarm. Also, to suggest that Un De Sceaux would have gone close to making it three from three against Special Tiara is disingenuous.

    In the interests of exhaustion, here are the first five from each of the Grade 1 Ryanairs along with the championship event they might have been entered for (along with plausible justifications) prior to the abolition of the Cathcart.

    2008
    1. Our Vic (165) – GC – 2nd King George, 2nd Pillar – 1st Aintree Bowl (bt Kauto Star)
    2. Mossbank (170) – GC – 2nd Lexus – 3rd Punchestown Gold Cup
    3. Turko (155) – GC – 1st Future Stayers, 2nd Irish Hennessy – 4th Charlie Hall
    4. Knight Legend (151) – GC – 1st Star Chase
    5. The Listener (170) – GC – 3rd Lexus, 1st Irish Hennessy – 1st Down Royal Champion Chase
    2009
    1. Imperial Commander (156) – GC – 1st PP Gold Cup – 1st Gold Cup
    2. Voy Por Ustedes (172) – CC – 1st, 2nd Champion Chase
    3. Schindlers Hunt (159) – CC/GC – 2nd Newlands Chase – 2nd Punchestown Gold Cup
    4. Tidal Bay (165) – CC/GC – 1st Arkle, 2nd Tingle Creek – 1st Cleeve Hurdle, 2nd Lancashire Chase
    5. Gwanako (154) – Intermediate
    2010
    1. Albertas Run (162) – GC – 1st RSA, 2nd King George
    2. Poquelin (161) – Intermediate
    3. J’y Vole (161) – Intermediate
    4. Deep Purple (166) – GC – 1st Charlie Hall
    5. Voy Por Ustedes (168) – CC – 1st, 2nd Champion Chase
    2011
    1. Albertas Run (166) – GC – 1st RSA, 2nd King George
    2. Kalahari King (162) – CC – 2nd Arkle, 3rd Champion Chase
    3. Rubi Light (157) – CC/GC – 2nd Normans Grove – 2nd Lexus Chase
    4. Poquelin (170) – Intermediate
    5. Voy Por Ustedes (155) – CC – 1st, 2nd Champion Chase
    2012
    1. Riverside Theatre (168) – GC – 2nd King George
    2. Albertas Run (168) – GC – 1st RSA, 2nd King George
    3. Medermit (165) – CC – 1st Haldon Gold Cup
    4. Captain Chris (164) – CC/GC – 1st Arkle Chase – 2nd King George
    5. Rubi Light (168) – CC/GC – 2nd Normans Grove – 2nd Lexus Chase
    2013
    1. Cue Card (165) – CC/GC – 1st Haldon Gold Cup – 1st Lancashire Chase
    2. First Lieutenant (168) – GC – 2nd RSA, 3rd Hennessy, 2nd Lexus – 1st Aintree Bowl
    3. For Non Stop (160) – Intermediate
    4. Riverside Theatre (169) – GC – 2nd King George
    5. Champion Court (155) – Intermediate
    2014
    1. Dynaste (169) – GC – 2nd Lancashire Chase – 2nd Aintree Bowl
    2. Hidden Cyclone (156) – CC – 2nd Dial a Bet Chase – 1st Tied Cottage Chase
    3. Rajdhani Express (155) – Intermediate
    4. Hunt Ball (155) – Intermediate
    5. Al Ferof (165) – GC – 2x 3rd King George
    2015
    1. Uxizandre (161) – CC – 1st Shloer Chase – 2nd Clarence House Chase
    2. Ma Filleule (156) – GC – 2nd Cheltenham Festival Three Mile Handicap Chase
    3. Don Cossack (166) – GC – 1st Star Chase – 1st Gold Cup
    4. Eduard (159) – Intermediate
    5. Johns Spirit (160) – Intermediate
    2016
    1. Vautour (176) – GC – 2nd King George
    2. Valseur Lido (161) – GC – 1st Champion Novice Chase – 1st Down Royal Champion Chase
    3. Road To Riches (165) – GC – 3rd Gold Cup, 2nd Irish Gold Cup
    4. Al Ferof (165) – GC – 2x 3rd King George
    5. Gilgamboa (156) – GC – 4th Paddy Power Chase – 4th Grand National
    2017
    1. Un De Sceaux (171) – CC – 1st Tingle Creek, 1st Clarence House
    2. Sub Lieutenant (161) – GC – 3rd Champion Novice Chase – 3rd Star Chase
    3. Aso (152) – GC – 3rd Betbright Chase, 4th Aintree Bowl
    4. Empire Of Dirt (166) – GC – 1st Troytown, 2nd Irish Gold Cup
    5. Josses Hill (158) – Intermediate
    2018
    1. Balko Des Flos (166) – GC – 2nd Christmas Chase
    2. Un De Sceaux (168) – CC – 9x 2m G1 wins
    3. Cloudy Dream (157) – CC/GC – 2nd Arkle/Shloer, 2nd Many Clouds/Denman
    4. Sub Lieutenant (160) – GC – 3rd Champion Novice Chase – 3rd Star Chase
    5. Frodon (162) – GC – 2nd Silver Cup Handicap Chase – 1st Cotswold Chase
    2019
    1. Frodon (169) – GC – 1st Cotswold Chase
    2. Aso (162) – GC – 4th Aintree Bowl – 3rd Charlie Hall
    3. Road To Respect (169) – GC – 1st Christmas Chase, 2 x 1st Down Royal Champion Chase
    4. Monalee (163) – GC – 2nd RSA Chase, 2nd Savills Chase
    5. Un De Sceaux (168) – CC – 9x 2m G1 wins

    This is considerably greater than a "dent". This is demonstrable evidence that the Ryanair perpetually depletes the top races of strength in depth.

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    My point about vautour and the Ryanair is the same point you are making BH.

    Imagine he had of ran in a QM v Sprinter
    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

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