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Thread: The Derby

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnyj View Post
    I too think SD surprised his connections. And sometimes horses can do that. You’re galloping a big, immature 3yo colt and it’s just going through the motions at home. No sign of anything out of the ordinary. He goes to the races, is green, wins but is still a bit clueless. Off to a much more demanding track like Chester and he struggles early on because quite frankly he’s still not sure. Then the penny suddenly drops mid race. And then he wakes up.

    I remember galloping a big fat 2yo colt in the mornings at Santa Anita. Everyone laughed at me as I used to have to sit down in the saddle and kick just to raise a normal canter. The guys on the starting stalls nicknamed him the Pork Chop and would wave as we waddled past every day. But I used to tell them I’d have the last laugh. I just got a spark of something from him and I knew he’d be ok. And then we started to breeze him. And he started to wake up. (And they took me off him as I was a girl! I left not long after but he went on to win over $1m and is the only horse to win 3 SAN Bernardino Handicaps in a row. He’s even got a Wikipedia page! (He was called Delmar Dennis) But my point is that horses can be just that. Seemingly useless at home and aren’t even considered by the trainer.
    A recent example of course is Makfi.

  2. #22
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    Telecaster looks to have a strong chance, but at double the price, Irish trainer Kevin Prendergast teams up with Hamdan Al Maktoum who can win the Epsom Derby with rhe English 2000 Guineas fourth placer MADHMOON.

    Good luck all.
    Last edited by Marb; 1st June 2019 at 2:01 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Sir Dragonet looks different class
    will win in style in route to win the Arc

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    I am sticking with Telecaster but no surprise if Norway sprung a bit of a shock.

    On the book he would appear to have no chance but he looked all worked up at Chester, all but burned himself out sweating badly. .

    Hampered by Sir Dragonet in the straight but still managed a decent 2nd.

    Their choice of jockey for this horse could be the key factor if Jamie can switch him off totally I can see him finishing with a flurry and grabbing a place at least.
    Formely Fist of Fury

  5. #25
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    I My bollockss done on Telecaster. I’m sticking to jumps

  6. #26
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Exciting race for sure and a great finish but surely the form is a pile of shite.

    Humanitarian got a strange ride. Lost all hope in the first couple of furlongs.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  7. #27
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    I don’t think it looks a bad race at all. They didn’t finish in a heap. They were all running on.
    No doubt you’re blaming RM for that ride too!
    tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

  8. #28
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    Actually it’s fascinating listening to Jason and Johnny talking about the race. So much sense and they’re not afraid to disagree with others.
    tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

  9. #29
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnyj View Post
    I don’t think it looks a bad race at all. They didn’t finish in a heap. They were all running on.
    No doubt you’re blaming RM for that ride too!
    They didn't finish in a heap? Half-a-length ahead of a four-way photo? I think all four 'runners-up', if I can call them that, went a fraction too soon. Heffernan got lucky in that he couldn't go with them because of traffic issues and ended up having his run delayed and it won him the race.

    The principals are probably around the 120-121 mark. Good but well short of the better Derby winners.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  10. #30
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    Can we just saviour the moment?

    Regardless of ratings it was a cracking race. I'd have loved Madhmoon to do it (or even dear heat).

    Aidan's horses looked like the Red Arrows towards the end.

    Well done Seamie Heffernan very down to earth well deserved.

    Could Madhmoon turn the form around in the King George at Ascot? Why not?
    Last edited by Marb; 1st June 2019 at 6:48 PM.

  11. #31
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    Yes I agree it was a cracking race. Maybe some of them did go slightly early but you do what the race dictates and it’s split second timing. It’s such a difficult track to ride, the way the horses handle every step counts.
    tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

  12. #32
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    Yes I'm not blaming anyone.

    Chris Hayes wasn't to know that Anthony Van was flying behind him at the finish.

    He was fighting the battle with the horse nearest to him, that was the right thing to do.

    I think he rode a great race. He couldn't have done anything different.

    Well done to Tom Marquand who rode the best race he could on Oh This Is Us today as well, even though he finished second to Zaaki. He turned around the form with Bye Bye Hong Kong which I thought he could.

    I was critical of him the last day but he couldn't have done any better.
    Last edited by Marb; 1st June 2019 at 7:44 PM.

  13. #33
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    Think that in both the Derby and the oaks people have been very quick to criticise jockeys going too soon. Madhmoon had to go to ensure sir dragonet didn't take his ground. Had he waited that extra half furlong that would be ideal he wouldn't have had a chance of beating sir dragonet, which not unrealistically Hayes felt was the main danger. Moore on sir dragonet of course would have been delighted to drift in and close the door if allowed. I'd guess it's an average renewal.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkWing View Post
    Think that in both the Derby and the oaks people have been very quick to criticise jockeys going too soon. Madhmoon had to go to ensure sir dragonet didn't take his ground. Had he waited that extra half furlong that would be ideal he wouldn't have had a chance of beating sir dragonet, which not unrealistically Hayes felt was the main danger. Moore on sir dragonet of course would have been delighted to drift in and close the door if allowed. I'd guess it's an average renewal.
    Agreed. If the winning distances were a nose and a dead heat Chris Hayes could question himself. But a length is a length.

    Whatever he done the winner was extending at the finish. I need to watch the re-run but I thought he did well to stay on iMadhmoon after he got bumped round the bend.

    I think he's upset for Kevin Prendergast who he would have loved to have won it for. It's understandable but when he watches the race back he'll see many jockeys would have not even dead heated for second.

    Good ride Hayes.
    Last edited by Marb; 1st June 2019 at 7:47 PM.

  15. #35
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinnyj View Post
    Yes I agree it was a cracking race. Maybe some of them did go slightly early but you do what the race dictates and it’s split second timing. It’s such a difficult track to ride, the way the horses handle every step counts.
    I agree with all that and with the benefit of replays and hindsight it's easy to say who should have done what and when. But that's the same in every sport. I was never Piggott's biggest fan but how often did he get the timing wrong over the Derby course? Dettori is the closest we'll get to that brilliance.

    Piggott also made mistakes but not in many of the very biggest races.

    It was a very exciting finish, though. I think I'm right in saying the first five home in the Derby were separated by less than the first five home in the Dash. That's probably a first.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  16. #36
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    It looked an open race and so it proved.
    it looked a Ballydoyle benefit and so it proved; five of the first six with less than a length between the top four.
    Great for Seamie Heffernan , so long number 2 at AP's having his day in the sun.
    Chris Hayes will feel a little done by the way his horse stumbled and Wayne Lordan will forever regret dropping his stick but such is racing.
    That the winner also won his maiden at Killarney and Japan his at Listowel shows what you can be up against every day in Ireland.
    Aiden has saddled seven winners ridden by six different jockeys, only Joseph rode two winners for his dad; who would have thought that ?

    Pedigree buffs will see the dam line traces to Sex Appeal, so the ghost of El Gran Senor and Vincent's quest for a record equalling seventh Derby win has been laid to rest 35 years after the event, 10 years after Vincent's death.
    I hope this guy is fertile at stud !

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  18. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgt View Post
    It looked an open race and so it proved.
    it looked a Ballydoyle benefit and so it proved; five of the first six with less than a length between the top four.
    Great for Seamie Heffernan , so long number 2 at AP's having his day in the sun.
    Chris Hayes will feel a little done by the way his horse stumbled and Wayne Lordan will forever regret dropping his stick but such is racing.
    That the winner also won his maiden at Killarney and Japan his at Listowel shows what you can be up against every day in Ireland.
    Aiden has saddled seven winners ridden by six different jockeys, only Joseph rode two winners for his dad; who would have thought that ?

    Pedigree buffs will see the dam line traces to Sex Appeal, so the ghost of El Gran Senor and Vincent's quest for a record equalling seventh Derby win has been laid to rest 35 years after the event, 10 years after Vincent's death.
    I hope this guy is fertile at stud !
    Broome fifth in that Killarney maiden - Wings of Eagles won his maiden there as well.

  19. #38
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
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    If Lordan hadn't lost his stick Japan would have won a length. This is the one to take out of the race.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

  20. #39
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    Although they all mature at different times and rates, it's worth noting that the winner was the only May foal in the race and, as such, is the youngest of AOB's by more than a month.
    The older I get the better I was.

  21. #40
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    I've just watched the race again and have a few theories I want to see put to the test over the coming months.

    The consensus is that they didn't go fast yet none of the pace-setters were in the hunt late in the day. Could it have been faster than it looked? AVD was off the bit at the top of the hill too, behind SD, which, if the pace wasn't fast, wasn't well positioned either, but neither was Broome who was behind them.

    At what point did Japan's jockey lose his whip? I couldn't see it on TV.

    Hayes said Madhmoon got lit up by stumbling at the path and maybe did too much from that point. He said he went "50 yards sooner" than he'd have wanted to but it looks like Moore has matched his move on SD. Was that a mistake?

    From the top of the hill to the 3f pole AVD was no more than a length behind SD and Madhmoon. As the latter nudged into Circus maximus the latter rolled towards Telecaster and the gap in front of AVD closed so Heffernan had to bie his time and look for an alternative route through. While this was happening, SD and M were going fully three lengths, maybe four, in front of him and dragging Broome and Japan after them. Then AVD got rolling again as he moved to the rail. Maybe having the rail helped him but I think being checked when the others were making their move has won him the race. I think the occasion and/or maybe the lit-up Madhmoon has got to the others and got them going those 50 yards too soon.

    I can maybe excuse Broome as he was always struggling to get to them and half a dozen strides after the line he was clear of his group and just ahead of the winner. He does look like a St Leger horse and maybe a future Gold Cup one. I'm not sure about Japan. I might want to watch his whole race again.

    Humanitarian - I'm mentioning it because I put it up on the longshot thread - finished even closer than I'd thought. I'm curious when I compare the ride Havlin gave him with the one on Mehdaayih in the Oaks, in which he was never far behind stablemate Anapurna. If the pace was so modest, why did he employ exaggerated hold-up tactics? Was he just hoping to pick up some minor prize money. I reckon the sectionals will tell us he covered the last four furlongs in pretty much the same time as the winner. My eyes might be deceiving but the clock won't.

    The race commentator mentioned something about Beggy's riding position as they came downhill. Did Sovereign's saddle slip?


    In summary, re the beaten horses:

    Circus Maximus didn't take to the track, according to Dettori.
    Line Of Duty didn't like the ground, according to Doyle.
    Telecaster ran flat, according to Murphy. I suspect he bounced after the Dante. The TV people thought he was too keen.
    Sovereign's saddle may have slipped.
    Bankok didn't run his race. De Sousa gave a reason but I can't remember what he said.

    I reckon run the race another five times and you'll probably get five different results. I hope the figures eventually tell me they're five seriously good horses, as might be Telecaster and Bankok, but I won't be surprised if they struggle when they end up taking on the older horses.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


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