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Thread: The 32Red Winter Festival Kempton Park Wed 26 Dec & Thurs 27 Dec 2018

  1. #41
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    I posted this stuff at the time (last Feb) but have no idea where it would be so I'm copying it from my files:

    The big race was compelling yet very unsatisfactory. They looked to go far too fast early on – Speredek, who led the field by a long way over shorter at Sandown, couldn’t get near the lead until after about a mile by which time Frost appeared to realise she’d gone too fast on Frodon and got a breather into him – so Cue Card deserves loads of credit for staying up there most of the way and getting to the front until collared late by Waiting Patiently. You can imagine how annoying it is for me to think I was on him ante-post at 25/1 for the Mackeson off just 150.

    I did some of my neanderthal sectional times on the races and came up with the following:

    Here are the results of a quick time comparison exercise with the two earlier chases over 3m, the Reynoldstown won by Black Corton and the £100k handicap won by Regal Encore:

    For the two earlier races I timed them from jumping the first fence of the race to the last in the home straight. The camera angle switched preventing me from taking a time at the winning post on the first circuit.

    Black Corton - 164sec
    Tenor Nivernais - 157sec

    I can't do decimal points on-screen so there is a margin of error but 7 seconds is at least 26 lengths. So Tenor Nivernais was all of that in front of Black Corton at that point. The chances are he was going too fast and BC was getting a soft lead.

    From the last fence on the first circuit to the winning post:

    Black Corton - 208sec
    Regal Encore* - 209sec

    Black Corton pulled back nearly four lengths overall through that stage but Regal Encore beat him by six seconds overall.

    Comparing these two races with the big race, timing it from the first fence in the shorter race to the last in the home straight:

    Black Corton - 117 sec
    Tenor Nivernais - 113 sec
    Leader in Betfair - 108 sec

    Those are very big margins.

    From the last fence on the first circuit to the winning post:

    Black Corton - 208sec
    Regal Encore* - 209sec
    Leader in Ascot Chase - 208sec


    So Black Corton, despite running in a 3f longer race has completed the final circuit in the same time as the leader at the various stages of the Ascot Chase. He was basically keeping pace with Cue Card and then with Waiting Patiently, but of course WP was running slightly faster as he was coming from behind.

    From six out to the line:

    Black Corton - 86 sec
    Regal Encore* - 89 sec
    Cue Card - 89.5s
    Waiting Patiently - 88 sec

    (* this is the time taken for the leader at these stages. Black Corton was in front, RE & WP came from a little further back.)


    Clearly Cue Card was slowing from six out, more so from two out.

    It looks like the times are confirming what the naked eye saw, namely that Frost got a breather into BC from 8 out to 6 out and really got the horse running from three out, covering that last section in 54s. Regal Encore took a little under 55s and Waiting Patiently took 57s, so Waiting Patiently was slowing down more than the winners of the other two races both run over 3f further.

    The pace was clearly over-fast in WP's race and he has benefited from a hold-up ride.


    I wrote most of the foregoing on Saturday and Sunday. On Wednesday I had a closer look at the times and they tell a slightly different story. Rating the times via Black Corton doesn’t work as it makes the others too fast. Rating them via Regal Encore (or Tenor Nivernais’s pace, to be more accurate) does work out. It makes BC slow overall, but that looks right given the way the race panned out. Frost just got to set an even slower pace than I’d thought. It puts Waiting Patiently on 172 and Cue Card on 170. Waiting Patiently, who the jockey claims was idling, will get a ‘+p’ and Cue Card a ‘++’ for setting the over-fast pace. Frodon has run below form after chasing the early pace. Top Notch was never convincing through the race with his jumping but I’m sure Hendo will have him spot on for Cheltenham.

    Simon Rowlands has analysed the race on his Sectional Spotlight at the ATR site:

    http://cheltenham.attheraces.com/sec...-ryanair-chase




    (I'm not sure that link will still work - I haven't checked it)

    If my figures are correct Waiting Patiently is clearly top class but his stamina remains a question. He was clearly finishing more slowly than the others despite racing over shorter so was he just being less affected by the pace for having been held up or was he indeed idling?
    Illegitimi non carborundum


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    Danny (21st December 2018)

  3. #42
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    The only horses I can think of who won the Derby first time out recently were Shaamit and Lammtarra. Both of those horses won poor renewals and showed improved form in races after Epsom (which is unusual.) WP is up against established high class chasers. It's a totally different ask imo.
    High class, yes, but not without their own question marks.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  4. #43
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    Does anyone actually think Native River will turn up. The price says no....I am assuming he only ran in the Betfair to try for the million and won't go to Kempton?

    I argued he had the speed to win the Betfair which he didn't for whatever reason.

    Backing against him for me would go against the grain...hard game this
    Formely Fist of Fury

  5. #44
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    It's just been put up on RP website he def runs hmmm
    Formely Fist of Fury

  6. #45
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    Im with Danny.its Coneygree for me.
    I just cant back mite bite after his last run,i think think the gold cup left its mark,just my opinion. I think Thistlecrack is my 2nd choice.
    Travelled well in the betfair but kept j7mping slowly.
    Should be a good forecast.??
    Cracking race in prospect.

  7. #46
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Thistlecrack will surely jump better round Kempton. Those stiff fences at Haydock were a very tough ask after so long off.

    Native River is a backable price now. He's so much better now than he was when T42 beat him in the Feltham.

    Might Bite is solid, most likely winner.

    BDM is about the right price. He has to get into a jumping rhythm and I think that's questionable on the track.

    Politologue and WP I cannot have at their respective odds.
    Last edited by Euronymous; 21st December 2018 at 2:31 PM.

  8. #47
    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    Mr Whipped a NR on Boxing Day, knocked himself in his box. (Kauto Star Novices Chase)
    Last edited by Diamond Geezer; 23rd December 2018 at 10:41 AM.

  9. #48
    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    10 declared for KG, Shattered Love a NR

  10. #49
    Senior Member granger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Geezer View Post
    10 declared for KG, Shattered Love a NR

    Shattered Love is a mare I have a hell of a lot of time for as an aside. Leop is a much better race for her
    Last edited by granger; 23rd December 2018 at 12:41 PM.
    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

  11. #50
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outsider View Post
    Im with Danny.its Coneygree for me.
    I just cant back mite bite after his last run,i think think the gold cup left its mark,just my opinion. I think Thistlecrack is my 2nd choice.
    Travelled well in the betfair but kept j7mping slowly.
    Should be a good forecast.??
    Cracking race in prospect.
    Bizarre you wouldn’t back The Biter because of his last run, but will back Coneygree despite his last five.

    I fully expect Might Bite to be back to his best at Kempton, and confidence is high. I just hope he is strongly-opposed in the betting on Tuesday.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  12. #51
    Senior Member Perpetual's Avatar
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    I have the Biter for the price of a small car after including him in nearly every double and treble through the late summer / early Autumn. Thought Haydock was bitterly disappointing, would clearly love him to win, but confidence is anything but high!

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    Grasshopper (23rd December 2018)

  14. #52
    Senior Member Perpetual's Avatar
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    Current going Good to Soft (Good in places) and with only 4-8mm due before Wednesday, almost certain to be no worse than that

    http://www.turftrax.co.uk/going_maps.html

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    Grasshopper (23rd December 2018)

  16. #53
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    What a race the Kauto Star is. Makes up for an uncompetitve turnout in the Christmas Hurdle
    Alcohol, because no good story ever started with "I was eating this salad..."

  17. #54
    Senior Member Perpetual's Avatar
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    Yep, absolute cracker
    Love Santini but won't be able to back him at the price, on the ground
    Bags Groove is a fantastic jumper, Worlds End looked impressive at Cheltneham, Topofthegame performed miracles to get as close as he did last time & La Bague Au Roi must have a shout getting the weight. Probably be a no bet race for me...

  18. #55
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Hopefully the ground stays as described.
    Going to be no hiding place given the likely pace in the race.

    Roll on.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  19. #56
    Senior Member granger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Bizarre you wouldn’t back The Biter because of his last run, but will back Coneygree despite his last five.

    I fully expect Might Bite to be back to his best at Kempton, and confidence is high. I just hope he is strongly-opposed in the betting on Tuesday.
    I've decided on Bristol. Not an all in but think he is ready to perform elsewhere.
    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

  20. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Bizarre you wouldn’t back The Biter because of his last run, but will back Coneygree despite his last five.

    I fully expect Might Bite to be back to his best at Kempton, and confidence is high. I just hope he is strongly-opposed in the betting on Tuesday.
    I don't agree with either Coneygree's last run was a very good effort on comeback Grass imo. And 4 runs ago he went close with Djakadam and Sizing John after 6 months layoff with problems neither that run or his last run entitle him to be 33/1.

    On the other hand I wouldn't be worried about Might Bites run lto and certainly think he's the most likely to take the honours the others have bigger question marks over them imo. If We were to get a shed load of rain then that opinion would change but they are predicting Gd-soft.

    I'm waiting on both Coney and the Shuffler for 10k off either from soft e/w doubles again but don't really hold out too much (practically zero) hope for either. Coney at his best was as good as any of these but its hard to see not only him stringing two performances together with the problems he's had but at nearly 12 being able to produce anything like what he did a few years ago. Still hopeful he'll run a big race and pick up the place part.

    It is really a race I can't wait to see, it would be fantastic if the vast majority of them could run something like their best.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  21. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonl View Post
    What a race the Kauto Star is. Makes up for an uncompetitve turnout in the Christmas Hurdle
    Don't be so sure.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  22. #59
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    I rate MB a proper champion but I just wonder if he will be at his best.

    I'm not sure he has been at his best since the RSA and I can't help wondering if his big run in the Feltham when he fell with the race sewn up in a very fast time, followed by his extraordinary show of pace in the RSA have left their mark.

    He was able to confirm his superiority over Whisper at Aintree but by nowhere near as far as had looked likely at Cheltenham.

    On his subsequent reappearance he didn't need to be asked any questions to beat a five-year-old Frodon.

    Then he may have idled in beating Double Shuffle in last year's race but it didn't look "easy".

    Then he couldn't beat - for me - an ordinary horse in Native River (172 tops for me) in the Gold Cup.

    Then at Aintree he did manage to get back to winning form beating BDM but the next three weren't beaten much further and they were rated only 155, 150 and 158 respectively.

    Then he properly disappointed on his seasonal reappearance.

    I have no doubt the real Might Bite would toy with this field but I just don't know whether we will ever see him again. I do hope so though.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 23rd December 2018 at 6:15 PM.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  23. #60
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    The best figure MB has ever produced...last years Gold Cup D.O ?
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

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