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Thread: Timeform's Highest Rated Chasers (since 1948)

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    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    Timeform's Highest Rated Chasers (since 1948)

    212 - ARKLE
    210- FLYINGBOLT
    192p - SPRINTER SACRE
    191 - KAUTO STAR
    191 - MILL HOUSE
    187 - DESERT ORCHID
    186 - DUNKIRK
    184 - BURROUGH HILL LAD
    184 - MOSCOW FLYER
    184 - LONG RUN
    183 - DENMAN
    183 - DON COSSACK
    183 - MASTER OAT

    Anyone disagree ?

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    I'm probably ok with the top 5, but I'm not sure about the bottom 4. Was Don Cossack's a vintage GC; Master Oates won a GC on very soft ground; and Long Run's 2011 GC win was better that Denman's two Henesseys and GC? And I wasn't aware Masterminded's 19-length CC win had been so discredited.
    Last edited by Len Madeiros; 22nd October 2018 at 2:10 PM.

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    Whether you were a fan or not it's hard to fathom how Best Mate fails to make the list but there's room for Don Cossack (his GC was as weak as any of Best Mate's once Cue Card departed), Long Run (really ?) and Master Oats (the Bristol De Mai of his generation)

    Those three shouldn't be in that list.
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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    The merits and otherwise of the ratings have been debated frequently on here over the years.

    Master Oats's best form was well worthy of his big rating.

    Best Mate was a bit of a donkey next to some of these
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    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    The whiskey was clearly in full flow when the first two were dished out.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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    Senior Member Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankel View Post
    The whiskey was clearly in full flow when the first two were dished out.
    Did you see either of them race?

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    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    Did you see either of them race?
    Timeform have admitted they given minimum marks based on winning certain races. The one that stands out to me is Markhab's master rating of 125 the year he won the Sprint Cup. That horse never ran to 120 his entire career but one fluke bad renewal of a Group 1 and he gets an artificial rating
    Go back 50 years Arkle and Mill House retire and the staying chase division becomes a wasteland of bang average horses before L'escargot shows up (a bit like that void couple of years in tennis between Sampras and Federer.)Stalbridge Colonist and What a Myth were at the top of the tree in those
    National Hunt void years and the minimum ratings they achieved Markhab styley for winning/placing at Cheltenham had a knock on effect of way over inflated marks for horses who beat them giving them stones
    My list:

    Arkle 198
    Flyingbolt 196
    Sprinter Sacre 191
    Kauto Star 191
    Desert Orchid 188
    Mill House 185
    Denman 185
    Burrough Hill Lad 184
    Moscow Flyer 184
    Dunkirk 183
    Azertyuiop 182
    Best Mate 181
    Last edited by Euronymous; 22nd October 2018 at 4:51 PM.

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    Long Run’s rating is based, I think, on his 2011 GC win. He beat three previous GC winners in a course record time, but none of those previous winners were at their peak. That rating might be reappraised. Master Oats never won a race after that GC, and was a soft ground bully. Does See More Business deserve a higher rating? GC and KG winner? Kicking King? Don Cossack has no place there at all.

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    I cant argue with the top two.
    I remember reading about Flyingbolt and he was a wonder horse.

    I remember backing Dubacilla ew in master oats' gold cup at 28s and it finished 2nd.heavy going suited master oats.
    A lot of gold cups were won by a class horse beating high handicappers.
    Best mate and kauto star came into that category.
    For me DENMAN should have been higher.top class chaser.

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    183 Denman vs 183 Don Cossack at their peak? No contest really.

    Master Oats did win a Welsh National off a heavy burden in his Gold Cup season also but would take fellow Welsh National victor Carvills Hill (182) over him also at their best.

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    Captain Christy a major omission for me.
    He defeated Pendil fair and square in 74 King George and ran away with 1975 race after a Gold Cup win as a novice.
    He was just defeated by April The Seventh In 1975 Whitbread giving that horse 2 stone.
    Master Minded's Champion Chase win at 5 was jaw dropping .
    Pearlyman was a dual champion chaser in a very competitive era and must have just missed out on this list, being top rated chaser of his era.

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    Senior Member fonz's Avatar
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    Don Cossack's 183 i'd imagine is purely down to that 26l hiding of Cue Card in the Melling Chase, without that your looking at 177/8.
    The fact that Cue Card wasn't the same Cue Card that nutted Vatour hasn't been taken into account by TF, But then again why should it.

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    If we're talking omissions, it's hard to ignore the only triple Champion Chase winner who was also the only one to officially win by a distance.

    The problem is that the rankings are very different if you're talking best single career performance (ie Timeform) or best Cheltenham Festival performance (most of the rest of us).

    I'm personally convinced that the Badsworth Boy from that blessed day in 1983 would have beaten any 2 mile chaser in the Timeform era other than Flyingbolt.
    Last edited by archie; 22nd October 2018 at 6:25 PM.
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    Moscow Flyer should have a ‘+’. Never got to the bottom of him, imo.

    Can’t agree with Outsider’s comments about Kauto Star, and comparisons with Best Mate about only beating high-end handicappers. He comfortably reversed form with Denman in the 2009 Gold Cup, and he was a champion at all distances from 2m to 3m2f. Hard to believe he remains maligned in some quarters. Denman was built to carry weight. Kauto a different type altogether. Respect both equally, I say.

    Long Run the outlier in that list. Top class, but worth a 180+ rating? Not for me.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 22nd October 2018 at 7:02 PM.
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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len Madeiros View Post
    Master Oats never won a race after that GC, and was a soft ground bully.
    Maybe the GC bottomed him. It was quite a performance. Maybe trying to win the National so soon after Cheltenham bottomed him but he was clearly never the same horse again. He wasn't so much a soft ground bully - I don't think - as simply a bit of monster in it.
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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    Go back 50 years Arkle and Mill House retire and the staying chase division becomes a wasteland of bang average horses before L'escargot shows up (a bit like that void couple of years in tennis between Sampras and Federer.)Stalbridge Colonist and What a Myth were at the top of the tree in those
    National Hunt void years and the minimum ratings they achieved Markhab styley for winning/placing at Cheltenham had a knock on effect of way over inflated marks for horses who beat them giving them stones
    I think this was mentioned in previous debates but I'm not sure what the evidence is to back up the assertion.

    Even in eras when there really isn't a stand-out performer the best tend to be around the 167/168 mark. Arkle was giving those types 35lbs and beating them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    Maybe the GC bottomed him. It was quite a performance. Maybe trying to win the National so soon after Cheltenham bottomed him but he was clearly never the same horse again. He wasn't so much a soft ground bully - I don't think - as simply a bit of monster in it.
    Yes, DO, you’re absolutely right. He was a monster that season, but again it was just the one season. I sometimes feel robbed that the great performances are never repeated because you can never get a proper gauge on how good the best horses could have been.

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    Senior Member TheBear's Avatar
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    You have to wonder if it will ever again be possible to achieve a mark anywhere close to the top two, which tells me there's something not quite right with them.

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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBear View Post
    You have to wonder if it will ever again be possible to achieve a mark anywhere close to the top two, which tells me there's something not quite right with them.
    I think that's a perfectly valid stance and I reckon it's why many people can't accept the ratings. We'll probably never get the definitive answer to the question about whether the ratings are accurate but don't forget Phil Smith attempted it and gave up after a long time studying the relevant form. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I recall he gave up because his research was leading towards the conclusion that their ratings were conservative, which even he found difficult to reconcile.

    You'd also think an operation with the human and technological resources that Timeform has at its disposal would be interested in back-analysing those ratings with a view to correcting them if the evidence so demanded and setting the records straight. Perhaps they already have and decided the figures are correct.

    I don't have any problem accepting them as they are.
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    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    There's a similar debate going on in one of the Facebook groups and someone states that Arkle made the handicapper produce two lists, one for if Arkle ran and a separate one in case he didn't.
    Have no recollection of that.

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