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Thread: Timeform's Highest Rated Chasers (since 1948)

  1. #21
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    I think this was mentioned in previous debates but I'm not sure what the evidence is to back up the assertion.

    Even in eras when there really isn't a stand-out performer the best tend to be around the 167/168 mark. Arkle was giving those types 35lbs and beating them.
    There's no concrete evidence really but there were no French breds around in those days and the horse volume was much lower. So it stands to reason the chances of a sub par sort of late 150s winner - a Lord Windermere or a Cool Ground would have been more likely then than it is now.

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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Geezer View Post
    There's a similar debate going on in one of the Facebook groups and someone states that Arkle made the handicapper produce two lists, one for if Arkle ran and a separate one in case he didn't.
    Have no recollection of that.
    Even I remember that, DG

    Yes, Arkle usually had 12-7 and the rest started about 9-7. In those days there weren't official ratings or raising of weights so if Arkle didn't run it would have been near-impossible for jockeys to make the weights so they introduced the system of creating two handicaps. The one without Arkle started at 12-7 and most horses would have carried their allotted weight as in those days they usually went down to 9-7.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Geezer View Post
    There's a similar debate going on in one of the Facebook groups and someone states that Arkle made the handicapper produce two lists, one for if Arkle ran and a separate one in case he didn't.
    Have no recollection of that.
    Yes that was absolutely right as I remember it.
    I always find the problem with statements like those made by The Bear is that let's say Arkle was really only a 190 horse, then apart from Flyingbolt (who was just that) and perhaps Mill House, then the best horse in the UK and Ireland was a 155 horse at best for about 7 years. I find that harder to understand than what I saw with my own eyes: The majesty of Arkle

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    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    There's no concrete evidence really but there were no French breds around in those days and the horse volume was much lower. So it stands to reason the chances of a sub par sort of late 150s winner - a Lord Windermere or a Cool Ground would have been more likely then than it is now.
    I think there were French breds but obviously nowhere near as many as now. The general volume was lower too but I'm not convinced it follows that the next best to Arkle and Flyingbolt were necessarily poor. Take them out and the likes of Mill House would have been on the scene and no-one is questioning his rating.

    Transfer the argument across to the Flat. Sea Bird was of the same era yet no-one is really questioning his 145 rating. A few years later Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef earned higher ratings than Nijinsky. And then there was Frankel a generation later.

    My own theory is that Arkle and Flyingbolt were doped to the eyeballs but their form merits the ratings.
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    It was definitely the case, DG, I remember it well
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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    Irish Grand National 1964 was the specific race where two handicaps were set.
    Runner up Height Of Fashion won a Punchestown handicap carrying 12 stone next start, having carried 9/7 or 9/9 when runner up at Fairyhouse.
    Reference also the Gallagher Gold Cup November 1965 when Arkle carried 12/7, won by 20 lengths, Mill House with 11/5 a further four lengths behind with course record broken by 17 seconds which still stands.
    Last edited by edgt; 23rd October 2018 at 4:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    There's no concrete evidence really but there were no French breds around in those days and the horse volume was much lower. So it stands to reason the chances of a sub par sort of late 150s winner - a Lord Windermere or a Cool Ground would have been more likely then than it is now.
    I think that's a very good point Euro and one I'd never considered before. The talent comes from a much deeper pool these days, as does the likelihood of the very best horses being trained to the minute.

    I've always been open to persuasion on Arkle and Flyingbolt's ratings over the years without feeling as though I could definitely argue for or against. But over the last few years I think I've edged towards the ratings being wrong, and am more of the opinion they are more like Kauto and Denman, just from a different era where the margins were more exaggerated. Whether their ratings mean they shouldn't occupy those two spots in a league table is another thing altogether though.
    Last edited by Maruco; 24th October 2018 at 11:11 AM.

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