Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 107

Thread: Cracksman

  1. #41
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,659
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,482 Times in 2,742 Posts
    I'm confused, Reet.

    It looks to me like you're implying I said that truly run races contain a 'fastest final furlong' more often than rarely?

    It isn't something I recall saying or even suggesting.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  2. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    7,308
    Thanks
    813
    Thanked 1,031 Times in 874 Posts
    Apologies, DO - that was not my intention.
    The 'search' facilty on this forum remains a complete mystery to me, and I'm unable to elicit any response, at all, from it on the few occasions I persevere with a query.
    I was alluding to a recent post of yours where you touched on viewing how horses finished in their races, though (with my usual ineptiude) I am unable to find it.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,659
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,482 Times in 2,742 Posts
    Could it have been when I mentioned that I used to watch VT recordings on FF to get a better idea of how races were panning out and which horses were finishing faster or slower than others?

    Or mentioning Kelly Holmes's olympic races?

    I do recall those discussions but it was to support the idea of horses not going faster at the end of a race.

    This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    I've never heard of this, Danny.

    Can I guess it means that some horses who appear to be making late headway are merely staying on as others slow down?

    If so, it's a theory I expounded years and years ago. I came up with it after listening to Kelly Holmes describe how she won gold at the olympics. Toward the end of the race she looked for all the world like she was storming home yet she said immediately afterwards she was merely concentrating on holding her form (ie style of running). Shortly after that the TV analyst (Steve Cram, maybe) pointed out that she had run dead even 100m fractions for the last lap (therefore those in front of her had to be slowing down). It's something that's stuck with me for a long time.

    Another angle I used to like checking out was by watching the race on VT on FF. So long as there was no horizontal 'noise' on the screen, you got a really good idea of what what and wasn't quickening. I suppose sectionals now tell you that more accurately but it gave me a head start at the time. Unfortunately digital recordings don't allow us to do the same thing anywhere near as well.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 2nd May 2018 at 9:02 AM.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  4. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    7,308
    Thanks
    813
    Thanked 1,031 Times in 874 Posts
    Cheer, DO; that's the one - specifically the reference to Kelly Holme's even fractions. Don't know much about athletics, but - had that been a truly run race - she would surely have been slowing in the final stages?

  5. #45
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,659
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,482 Times in 2,742 Posts
    Actually, that's an angle I hadn't considered. Would it not be possible to argue though that it was a true-run race in the sense that the others did slow (as a result of being involved in a true-run race) and it was her tactical nous that saw her time her race better?

    I do suspect, on the other hand, that maybe in athletics it might be the 100% finish, to use sectional terms, that denotes the true-run race. Like you, I don't know much about athletics but I do like listening to the expert analysis from people like Michael Johnson and Colin Jackson.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 2nd May 2018 at 10:47 AM.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  6. #46
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,748
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    Warbler has some interesting thoughts and views on this subject. Perhaps he could come out of horse racing forum retirement to share his views. They are very much worth hearing. I'll drop him a quick PM.

  7. #47
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dalkey
    Posts
    5,496
    Thanks
    422
    Thanked 840 Times in 477 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    I reckon he will conclude that Putin holds his form and that Trump runs in snatches.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

  8. #48
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,748
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    Very good Colm

  9. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,272
    Thanks
    628
    Thanked 489 Times in 302 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Maruco View Post
    Warbler has some interesting thoughts and views on this subject. Perhaps he could come out of horse racing forum retirement to share his views. They are very much worth hearing. I'll drop him a quick PM.
    Is that like the talking horses version of the Bat signal.

    Nahnahnahnahnahnahnahnahnahna Warbler!
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Bangkok Thailand
    Posts
    11,099
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 766 Times in 655 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    Cant see anywhere that anybody, except you, used the term "second coming" and you are the only one talking about an undefeated season so not sure what you are on.
    Well that's strange because when I remarked he was far from special you appeared to dispute that plus you have him as more exciting than the most impressive filly in years who is a quadruple Oaks/King George and Arc winner.

    You're supposed to read the form book not smoke it
    Formely Fist of Fury

  11. #51
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,748
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    Is that like the talking horses version of the Bat signal.

    Nahnahnahnahnahnahnahnahnahna Warbler!


    You'd know him as Spook Danny.

  12. #52
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,272
    Thanks
    628
    Thanked 489 Times in 302 Posts
    Yes mate I'm aware that Sensei now hides amongst your political section. I dare say attempting to educate fools such as I, contributed to his early retirement or at least sent him into sabbatical with a few less hairs on his head
    Last edited by Danny; 3rd May 2018 at 11:58 AM.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  13. #53
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,748
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    I have a feeling your Sensei may temporarily come out of retirement on this subject. It's one he and I started discussing 15 years or more ago.

  14. #54
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    8,493
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 103 Times in 90 Posts
    I might get round to giving it some thought later (then again, I might not as horse racing is kak - sorry to break it to you!)

    Basically you need differentiate between 'speed' and 'acceleration'. The two things are different. Understanding how horses deploy either to win a race, and what type of race too, holds a key of sorts. A couple who come to mind were George Washington and Ouija Board. Both had similar top speeds to the contemporaries once they were in full flow, but both had a devastating burst that could open up advantage they could then defend. Where these horses can occasionally come unstuck of course is if they're required to accelerate twice in the same race

    It's a rare horse that can accelerate off a strong pace. Those that can are the very, very best, or otherwise called Mr Frankel

    The other key thing is to understand the relationship between stamina and speed. Outside of sprint distances, where you're on anerobic running, stamina (aerobic) is the very expression of speed. That is to say the horse that can sustain its top speed for longest (the last one to begin slowing down) which is stamina in any other name.

    Contrary to what a lot of people think, stamina is not necessarily an expression of distance. If you want to use the athletics equivalent, then look no further than 400m and 10,000m runners. In the 400m, the winner will often crash through the line, fall to the track, and be violently gulping in oxygen. The 10,000 metre winner can probably give you an interview. The reason is because the 400m runner is out of stamina for having had to sustain a punishing speed to the point where they're running on empty.

    A lot of horses have a remarkably similar top-speed in their class. Horses do have a ceiling above which they can't go. What sets them apart is the duration for which they can sustain that top speed, and the amount of time it takes them to reach that top speed (that's the parable of Ulshaw for you Paul)

    Horses like humans are fuelled by oxygen and their ability to process it into the blood stream and get it circulated. All horses have a cubic capacity therefore over which they can't go (unless you believe Hollywood westerns!)
    Last edited by Warbler; 3rd May 2018 at 9:19 PM.
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Warbler For This Useful Post:

    Marb (3rd May 2018)

  16. #55
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Leyland
    Posts
    18,859
    Thanks
    336
    Thanked 833 Times in 691 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    I might get round to giving it some thought later (then again, I might not as horse racing is kak - sorry to break it to you!)
    I find it amazing that someone who was so into the sport now has this opinion. Particularly someone who still seems to like Cricket.

  17. #56
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    7,401
    Thanks
    1,350
    Thanked 1,133 Times in 1,015 Posts
    Blog Entries
    110
    Indeed! It's still the sport of kings. Admittedly financed by murky capitalist dictators, regulated by rogues and gambled on by oily chancers, but still the sport of kings. Prefer it to the next football match anyday! Although snooker is growing on me.
    Last edited by Marb; 3rd May 2018 at 7:10 PM.

  18. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Talbot Green
    Posts
    13,268
    Thanks
    2,133
    Thanked 958 Times in 720 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Watching snooker is a better cure for insomnia than most.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  19. #58
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    7,308
    Thanks
    813
    Thanked 1,031 Times in 874 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post

    It's a rare horse that can accelerate off a strong pace. Those that can are the very, very best, or otherwise called Mr Frankel
    !sn't the corollary to that, horses that accelerate off a none-too-strong pace aren't necessarily Frankels;
    eg, Cracksman, or Mendelsson tomorrow?

  20. #59
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,748
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    I might get round to giving it some thought later (then again, I might not as horse racing is kak - sorry to break it to you!)

    Basically you need differentiate between 'speed' and 'acceleration'. The two things are different. Understanding how horses deploy either to win a race, and what type of race too, holds a key of sorts. A couple who come to mind were George Washington and Ouija Board. Both had similar top speeds to the contemporaries once they were in full flow, but both had a devastating burst that could open up advantage they could then defend. Where these horses can occasionally come unstuck of course is if they're required to accelerate twice in the same race

    It's a rare horse that can accelerate off a strong pace. Those that can are the very, very best, or otherwise called Mr Frankel

    The other key thing is to understand the relationship between stamina and speed. Outside of sprint distances, where you're on anerobic running, stamina (aerobic) is the very expression of speed. That is to say the horse that can sustain its top speed for longest (the last one to begin slowing down) which is stamina in any other name.

    Contrary to what a lot of people think, stamina is not necessarily an expression of distance. If you want to use the athletics equivalent, then look no further than 400m and 10,000m runners. In the 400m, the winner will often crash through the line, fall to the track, and be violently gulping in oxygen. The 10,000 metre winner can probably give you an interview. The reason is because the 400m runner is out of stamina for having had to sustain a punishing speed to the point where they're running on empty.

    A lot of horses have a remarkably similar top-speed in their class. Horses do have a ceiling above which they can't go. What sets them apart is the duration for which they can sustain that top speed, and the amount of time it takes them to reach that top speed (that's the parable of Ulshaw for you Paul)

    Horses like humans are fuelled by oxygen and their ability to process it into the blood stream and get it circulated. All horses have a cubic capacity therefore over which they can't go (unless you believe Hollywood westerns!)
    Something we never explored in the past, but Simon Rowlands is working on stride length and frequency at the moment, which is a really interesting angle. Take a look as his recent article Alun and let me know what you think because I think this built in with some of your previous work gets very interesting.

    http://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sect.../12-April-2018

    I think this is an angle you could consider exploring. I'm not suggesting for one second you can have another dive into horse racing, particularly the way you once did, but with the classics round the corner I thought this might be a piece of work that might capture your interest on the basis that it's the analytics that float your boat.

  21. #60
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    795
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 27 Times in 24 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    !sn't the corollary to that, horses that accelerate off a none-too-strong pace aren't necessarily Frankels;
    eg, Cracksman, or Mendelsson tomorrow?
    Reet me old mucker why are you trying to stir the shitt pot. First of all nobody compared Cracksman to Frankel.

    Second of all if you really want to use sarcasm to its highest degree you should be comparing every horse to the greatest race horse of the last 50 years, Secretariat, not Frankel.

    I think we might actually agree on Mendelsohn shudder the thought but for different reasons. We are going to find out tomorrow what that Dubai win was worth. My book says he won't be placed. If he is I won't be winning on any exotics
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •