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Thread: Cracksman

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    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
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    Its hard not to love Tanlic at times. Had to go back to 1972 to find a beast and performance that could add merit to his contention that Cracksman is overrated. Quality stuff that.

    In other news; Siegfried and Roy were never a patch on Houdini.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

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    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    Quick look at the sectionals confirms the race turned into a speed test, and Cracksman was best placed to take to advantage - much as he was in last season's better run Champion Stakes.
    So he stole the race yesterday and pinched 7 lengths at Ascot!
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by an capall View Post
    Its hard not to love Tanlic at times. Had to go back to 1972 to find a beast and performance that could add merit to his contention that Cracksman is overrated. Quality stuff that.

    In other news; Siegfried and Roy were never a patch on Houdini.
    ROFLMAO
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankel View Post
    So he stole the race yesterday and pinched 7 lengths at Ascot!
    Aye, and when Enabled turns him over, you'll be the first on here to say "I told you so".

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    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    Aye, and when Enabled turns him over, you'll be the first on here to say "I told you so".
    Another well reasoned response
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    Good luck with that venture then.

    Even if I have no idea today what this 3yo crop might turn out to be, I'll be amazed if there is a 3yo that can hang with Cracksman.
    If there was some sort of betting market to that effect I'd wager a rare small fortune if the odds were fair.
    I'm not really in much of a position to comment as I missed the majority of last season so have no strong opinion either way tbh. But if you're prepared to say that some of the comments make good reading with your morning coffee it's best to stay away from putting together comments like "I have no idea" and " I'd wager a small fortune on it".

    The two really shouldn't mix.
    Last edited by Danny; 30th April 2018 at 10:01 PM.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

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    [QUOTE=Tanlic;702449]

    The truth about Cracksman is he was beaten in both Derbys and had won only one sub standard Group 1 which was not good enough to be going to stud with considering who his pappa was.


    Considering his owner is in his 70s, (old enough to remember Mill Reef, among others) may not be around to enjoy his offspring you can see why he would be anxious to keep Cracksman in training rather than rush him off to stud.

    One of Paddy Mullins' last winners was a filly who won a hurdle; when asked his plans for her he replied " I cannot see her being retired to stud any time soon as her owner is well in his 90s !"
    Having retired Golden Horn at the end of his 3 year old season the owner is well entitled to enjoy this horse for an extra season or two.

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    dont think cracksman was the finished article in the first derby, he missed his preparation race and he would of won the irish derby if frankie was riding that
    day in ireland and that sub standard group 1 you mentioned when he battered the other runners, most of them were multiple group 1 placed horses and
    three of them were group 1 winners. the ground conditions didnt suit highland reel on the day, the manner in which he won the race was still exceptional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    I'm not really in much of a position to comment as I missed the majority of last season so have no strong opinion either way tbh. But if you're prepared to say that some of the comments make good reading with your morning coffee it's best to stay away from putting together comments like "I have no idea" and " I'd wager a small fortune on it".

    The two really shouldn't mix.
    The two comments that you consider are actually very compatible from my point of view of someone who has been following and been involved with this sport in all manners and in many different racing jurisdictions for about 50 years.

    In above case I am confident enough in my position because I believe that Cracksman is the type of horse that comes around not so often based on my own personal experience. So with that thought process the bet would make perfect sense. I've trusted my own eyes, numbers and in some cases personal contact information above all else for a very long time with very good success. But as in every venture I've gotten it wrong as well, sometimes spectacularly.

    Something tells me that it won't be the case with Cracksman but time will tell. Let us see if he turns out better than Golden Horn who won the Derby and Arc for the same owner, trainer, jockey combo. I know where I stand.

    It should tell you something if Fist trots out Mill Reef to make some sort of comparison, even if I have no idea where that comes from.
    Mill Reef was definitely one of the true greats so to be mentioned with him in the same paragraph, that works for me, even if it was meant as a takedown.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

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    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    For those that missed the point it was the Ganay performances I was comparing. One horse a real star wins doing handstands another is punched out to catch a somewhat moderate animal who went off at 80/1 and you Cracksman lovers think he's the next coming.....You're having a laugh.

    I say it again he will not go through the season unbeaten and will be forgotten in a year.
    Formely Fist of Fury

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    The ride on COS makes more sense if a stallion deal has already been done between Op and the boys in blue for Cracksman
    Last edited by SP Only; 1st May 2018 at 12:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanlic View Post
    For those that missed the point it was the Ganay performances I was comparing. One horse a real star wins doing handstands another is punched out to catch a somewhat moderate animal who went off at 80/1 and you Cracksman lovers think he's the next coming.....You're having a laugh.

    I say it again he will not go through the season unbeaten and will be forgotten in a year.
    Cant see anywhere that anybody, except you, used the term "second coming" and you are the only one talking about an undefeated season so not sure what you are on.
    Last edited by brendanr; 1st May 2018 at 12:33 PM.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    The two comments that you consider are actually very compatible from my point of view of someone who has been following and been involved with this sport in all manners and in many different racing jurisdictions for about 50 years.

    In above case I am confident enough in my position because I believe that Cracksman is the type of horse that comes around not so often based on my own personal experience. So with that thought process the bet would make perfect sense. I've trusted my own eyes, numbers and in some cases personal contact information above all else for a very long time with very good success. But as in every venture I've gotten it wrong as well, sometimes spectacularly.

    Something tells me that it won't be the case with Cracksman but time will tell. Let us see if he turns out better than Golden Horn who won the Derby and Arc for the same owner, trainer, jockey combo. I know where I stand.

    It should tell you something if Fist trots out Mill Reef to make some sort of comparison, even if I have no idea where that comes from.
    Mill Reef was definitely one of the true greats so to be mentioned with him in the same paragraph, that works for me, even if it was meant as a takedown.
    That's a fair response Brendan. As I said I haven't too stronger opinion either way and at some point I really need to be catching up on last seasons form properly. My initial reaction to any good horse that everyone is raving about is to automatically take it on but that's just the punter in me. I certainly haven't been in the game as long as you but in my time I've found in general horses get over hyped and over bet so I don't mind trying to take them on.

    I think just from a common sense point of view of if he couldn't dominate last seasons 3yo crop then then I'd struggle to see him dominating this years when he'll have all the weight allowances to contend with. I'm a believer in figures and if Des says that he's recorded above average figures for Cracksman then that's enough for me to accept that the horse has ability. At a quick glance though the only to figures he's produced are in the Voltigeur and the Champion Stakes with the higher being in the latter. Unless they have some sort of mark up they don't look that remarkable to me. The Champion Stakes performance although massively eye catching was run on what looked like pretty bad ground I'm always suspect about any performance on such a surface. Poets Word the second was turned over by Decorated Knight on its previous outing. Highland Reel who to my eye is the only genuinely reliable yard stick of sorts would of hated the ground and if memory serves didn't he go via the car park to the finishing line.

    Whilst figures to me are the greatest assessment of a horses ability i.e the only true gauge of a horses ability can be the time in which he gets from point a to point b when ridden to maximum efficiency. There does come a time where you have to sit back and say what have they won ? I had horses like Rakti producing big figures on his day and as much as I loved the deranged bastid I couldn't rate him amongst a group of horses I hold as the elites. I remember Stone of Folca (a 90 something rated handicapper) breaking my stop watch at Epsom one time with the fastest 5f time I've ever recorded (that might not be the fastest but the fastest I've taken note of).

    At the end of the day thus far he's won a Champion stakes and a Volitigeur impressively both of those with ground on the softer side. By all means he may go on to win a few of the top prizes the Eclipse, The Arc, Breeders Cup, and then maybe you could mention him in the same breath as some of the greats. My initial reaction as a punter would to be to bet against that being the case.

    Time will tell.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

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    ive only been looking a group 1 races for the last few years and from my experience you will always get people knocking certain horses at the highest level,
    time and time again they will be proven more wrong then right in most instances and over the long haul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanlic View Post
    For those that missed the point it was the Ganay performances I was comparing. One horse a real star wins doing handstands another is punched out to catch a somewhat moderate animal who went off at 80/1 and you Cracksman lovers think he's the next coming.....You're having a laugh.

    I say it again he will not go through the season unbeaten and will be forgotten in a year.
    Think I may be missing the point Tanners, old bean. Your contention is that if Cracksman happens to be beaten in a horse race this season that he will be airbrushed from the annals of history and forgotten even by Messrs Oppenheim, Gosden and Dettori? Is that it?
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

  18. #37
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    I can't find my previous notes but on the day of the Champion Stakes I wrote:

    I think Cracksman is a good thing and I can’t understand why he’s not top rated on ORs or RPRs but maybe I’m missing something. On RPRs, Highland Fling has to be the tentative bet at 12/1 although I won’t be surprised if Cracksman wins by a wide margin.
    I presume it was his win in the Voltigeur that led me to that conclusion but because I was looking for value in the outsiders I didn't back it that day but I do recall having it many pounds clear on my figures, hence those comments.

    I think Cracksman was a relatively slow developer last year and likely to prove considerably better this time. I had him on 133+p for winning the Champion Stakes and can see him as a 135-140 horse this season. That kind of animal only comes along once every few years.

    Or so you'd think.

    But just as Mill Reef had Brigadier Gerard (and vice versa) to contend with, and Arkle had Flyingbolt and Mill House, and Kauto Star and Denman had each other, so Cracksman has Enable to tackle this season, with the fillies' allowance making things very interesting indeed as I have her on 127+p.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 1st May 2018 at 9:27 PM.
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    A few comments.

    Difficult to crib about such a performance but he does seem to me to be favoured by soft ground. I'd like to judge him after a tougher Gp1 on good to firm.

    Strange comparison to Mill Reef's Ganay win in order to put down this performance. MR may have won by 10 lengths in '72 but he only did what he should have done (maybe that should have been the comparison). The 2nd that day failed to win that season and managed only a Gp3 a year later (his only black type win). The 3rd that day managed a Gp 3 two years later (his only black type win).

    Cracksman's win sets the season up nicely for Europe's middle distance races.

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    I think Enable is exceptional.and i hope she stays unbeaten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post

    I think Cracksman was a relatively slow developer last year and likely to prove considerably better this time. I had him on 133+p for winning the Champion Stakes and can see him as a 135-140 horse this season. That kind of animal only comes along once every few years.
    With respect, DO, and despite your recent assertion to the contrary, it's been my experience - over many years - that truly run races very rarely contain a 'fastest final furlong'; the upshot being that the vast majority of such races lead to horses slowing down in the closing stages, yet here you are rating Cracksman on two races. neither of which turned out to be truly run
    As i wrote after the Champion Stakes, Cracksman won that race with a burst of speed from a prominent position in the closing stages; much the same as he did on Sunday.
    You're in good company though, as both the OH and Timeform elevated his rating without considering that factor, and look likely to repeat the feat after the Ganay.
    Time will tell, but Enable has proven herself in truly run 12f races (Cracksman has yet to) and I'd still contend she'll finish the higher rated, should they ever meet in such circumtances.
    Last edited by reet hard; 2nd May 2018 at 8:02 AM.

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