Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 107

Thread: Cracksman

  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    7,312
    Thanks
    814
    Thanked 1,033 Times in 875 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    Reet me old mucker why are you trying to stir the shitt pot. First of all nobody compared Cracksman to Frankel.
    Nobody?

    https://www.racingpost.com/news/fran...workout/327867

  2. #62
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    8,493
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 103 Times in 90 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    !sn't the corollary to that, horses that accelerate off a none-too-strong pace aren't necessarily Frankels;
    'Necessarily' is the key word, as what you're saying is that they haven't demonstrated they have the ability to win a strong end-to-end race, but then this also requires you to take an accurate view as to how a race will be run

    The best division I know for illustrating this is 2 mile novice hurdlers. Contrary to what people might think, at championship pace the 2 mile division is a test of stamina, but because its the minimum trip in the winter game people get seduced into thinking its a test of speed (parallels with the 400m again)

    If you look at the Supreme in particular, it's littered with horses that went into the race as well fancied favourites. Most of these earned exalted reputations based around moderately run races which they settled with an increase in tempo from 3F's out, and then deployed a devastating acceleration from 1F out to earn the comment "impressive". They're invariably installed as favourite and considered a good thing come the Festival (often at a very short price). Now I'm not to say they're poor horses, they are after all winning races in prep, and doing so in convincing fashion, but that would only make them a good thing if the race is going to be run in a fashion similar to that to which they've demonstrated they can handle with aplomb. They might have a plan B, and they might very well be able to handle a searing pace from the tapes too, but you simply haven't got the evidence to know that

    The one I'm reminded of (as it dragged me into a 10 week argument on neigh.co.uk when it seemed I had half of Ireland ranged against me) concerned two Irish horses who had developed just this type of pattern (Sweet Wake in the Supreme and Mister Hight in the Triumph). Now it suits me to dredge this one up (as I was vindicated - you tend to remember those) but the two horses I had in opposition against them based on twice running big figures that season were Straw Bear and Detroit City. This pair had shown they could sustain a strong pace, whereas the Irish pretenders had to be considered unproven but with potential. As it happens Straw Bear came second, and would have won had McCoy not made a complete bollocks of the last flight and bunny hopped the horse to a halt. Sweet Wake was an unplaced BF. Detroit City won the Triumph and Mister Hight was nowhere

    What I think likely happens is that the horse which has no experience of a strong pace is suddenly thrown into something that they've never encountered previously and it comes as a shock to them. How will they respond? Distressed horses rarely perform to their optimum. Now with time of course, a class horse can learn, but on other occasions they simply aren't good enough
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  3. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    North Cork. Home of steeple chasing
    Posts
    5,341
    Thanks
    2,209
    Thanked 1,335 Times in 801 Posts
    Blog Entries
    7
    So will Cracksman make into a good novice hurdler or not ?

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to edgt For This Useful Post:

    Eleanora Duse (4th May 2018)

  5. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    795
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 27 Times in 24 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    Ah yes, sorry had not seen that. These Frankel comparisons are really getting beyond tedious.
    Frankel offspring this Frankel offspring that, can't hear it anymore.
    Last edited by brendanr; 4th May 2018 at 1:51 PM.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  6. #65
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    'Necessarily' is the key word, as what you're saying is that they haven't demonstrated they have the ability to win a strong end-to-end race, but then this also requires you to take an accurate view as to how a race will be run

    The best division I know for illustrating this is 2 mile novice hurdlers. Contrary to what people might think, at championship pace the 2 mile division is a test of stamina, but because its the minimum trip in the winter game people get seduced into thinking its a test of speed (parallels with the 400m again)

    If you look at the Supreme in particular, it's littered with horses that went into the race as well fancied favourites. Most of these earned exalted reputations based around moderately run races which they settled with an increase in tempo from 3F's out, and then deployed a devastating acceleration from 1F out to earn the comment "impressive". They're invariably installed as favourite and considered a good thing come the Festival (often at a very short price). Now I'm not to say they're poor horses, they are after all winning races in prep, and doing so in convincing fashion, but that would only make them a good thing if the race is going to be run in a fashion similar to that to which they've demonstrated they can handle with aplomb. They might have a plan B, and they might very well be able to handle a searing pace from the tapes too, but you simply haven't got the evidence to know that

    The one I'm reminded of (as it dragged me into a 10 week argument on neigh.co.uk when it seemed I had half of Ireland ranged against me) concerned two Irish horses who had developed just this type of pattern (Sweet Wake in the Supreme and Mister Hight in the Triumph). Now it suits me to dredge this one up (as I was vindicated - you tend to remember those) but the two horses I had in opposition against them based on twice running big figures that season were Straw Bear and Detroit City. This pair had shown they could sustain a strong pace, whereas the Irish pretenders had to be considered unproven but with potential. As it happens Straw Bear came second, and would have won had McCoy not made a complete bollocks of the last flight and bunny hopped the horse to a halt. Sweet Wake was an unplaced BF. Detroit City won the Triumph and Mister Hight was nowhere

    What I think likely happens is that the horse which has no experience of a strong pace is suddenly thrown into something that they've never encountered previously and it comes as a shock to them. How will they respond? Distressed horses rarely perform to their optimum. Now with time of course, a class horse can learn, but on other occasions they simply aren't good enough
    I remember you latching on to Detroit City at Newbury after his less than auspicious start on debut. You went pretty high for it as I remember, and then higher again in its third run at Sandown. I also think you ranked the Sandown race better than any of the 10 previous Triumph Hurdles? I half recall you having a progression theory too?

    I don't think I was quite as sweet on Straw Bear though, and I'm pretty sure I was one of those in opposition. I think the reason was that he was campaigned at gaff tracks prior to the Festival, and horses that had previously done so had never won a Supreme. That remained true, but as you say without the mistake at the last he may well have broken that trend and beaten Noland. Unless I'm mistaken, I think that trend still holds up a dozen or so years on by the way.

  7. #66
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,272
    Thanks
    628
    Thanked 489 Times in 302 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Marble View Post
    Indeed! It's still the sport of kings. Admittedly financed by murky capitalist dictators, regulated by rogues and gambled on by oily chancers, but still the sport of kings.
    Brilliantly put Martin.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  8. #67
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Bangkok Thailand
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 766 Times in 655 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    If only I were a king I could make a fortune..but then if I was a king I'd already have a fortune
    Formely Fist of Fury

  9. #68
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Bangkok Thailand
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 766 Times in 655 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Wow Cracksman wonderhorse..


    S0rry Avengers have you tried Suicide squad? No way would this horse be remembered for 5 min after this season
    Formely Fist of Fury

  10. #69
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    795
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 27 Times in 24 Posts
    Season ain't over yet
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  11. #70
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    4,766
    Thanks
    77
    Thanked 175 Times in 161 Posts
    Given how he ran at Epsom the twice before, it was slightly surprising he was given the go ahead.
    I had a suspicion he would make heavy weather of it. That said, it was to his credit his class got him home.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  12. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    5,458
    Thanks
    29
    Thanked 68 Times in 41 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Frankel View Post
    Given how he ran at Epsom the twice before, it was slightly surprising he was given the go ahead.
    I had a suspicion he would make heavy weather of it. That said, it was to his credit his class got him home.
    Scraped past Salouen ? The Enable of 2017 would have won this race ten lengths on the bridle .

    De Sousa threw that away his failure to get to the rail when he had the chance cost him the race.
    Last edited by Ardross; 1st June 2018 at 10:56 PM.

  13. #72
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    4,766
    Thanks
    77
    Thanked 175 Times in 161 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardross View Post
    Scraped past Salouen ? The Enable of 2017 would have won this race ten lengths on the bridle .

    De Sousa threw that away his failure to get to the rail when he had the chance cost him the race.
    10 lengths on the bridle - errrrrr no.
    But yes she would have dealt with him.

    Wouldn't be slagging the ride. Was a good ride in defeat.
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  14. #73
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardross View Post
    Scraped past Salouen ? The Enable of 2017 would have won this race ten lengths on the bridle .

    De Sousa threw that away his failure to get to the rail when he had the chance cost him the race.
    De Sousa said afterwards his horse was tiring and "rolled away from the rail". I think to label the ride a failure is harsh. He came within a head of pulling off a real shock of a result. It's not as if he was riding the second favourite who would have been entitled to beat an off-form Cracksman. He was not expected to beat many - if ANY - of that field.

    The most ridiculous comments of the day - and not for the first time - have to go to Chapman who seriously tried to argue that Cracksman had run his race. That kind of incompetence deserves sacking.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  15. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    london, ireland shinrone
    Posts
    311
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
    cracksman didnt seem like he was in tip top race condition today, and for all the cracksman haters, even money to win by less than
    4 1/2 lengths today

  16. #75
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    I don't know about tip-top condition (I can't judge these things in the flesh let alone on TV) but I thought he was never travelling. It was going through my mind listening to the immediate post-race interviews about him not coming down the hill that he wasn't travelling up the hill in the first part of the race either. I thought Dettori's arms were fairly active on him from the start and wondered if all was well.

    I don't imagine we'll see him at Epsom again. That was too close for comfort. Dettori's immediate post-race gestures of relief were refreshingly honest.

    Let's not forget that the Brigadier was run close a couple of times in bad ground and was beaten by Roberto when there was no obvious excuse until some time later, and Nijinsky lost his last two races.

    Horses are only human after all...
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 2nd June 2018 at 7:53 AM.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  17. #76
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,272
    Thanks
    628
    Thanked 489 Times in 302 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    The most ridiculous comments of the day - and not for the first time - have to go to Chapman who seriously tried to argue that Cracksman had run his race. That kind of incompetence deserves sacking.
    I actually think he has Des.

    I think it sort of depends on your view before the race as to how you viewed it afterwards. I expected Salouen to run him close and I also expected the German horse to be in the mix so for me the result was exactly what I expected therefore I think Cracksman has run his race. Has he produced his best run ever ? No but then would you ever expect him to at Epsom over 1m4f ? That was probably as well as he can perform there. Personally I think he's a very good horse but also overhyped. It made me laugh when I listened to everybody's reaction to it afterwards about it being a below par run. It was a solid group 1 performance.


    I'd suggest some of those who feel it was disappointing go and re-watch last years Derby and only keep their eyes on Salouen. Watch it a few times and then ask seriously are we surprised that Salouen has run Cracksman so close with a clear run ? I'd bet a pound to a piece of **** that all the T.V pundits who were slagging Cracksman on the basis that Salouen had finished so close wouldn't have even recalled him running in the Derby. Maybe if they paid that sort of attention before the race and not just assume that the 2/7 fav has a walk in the park then their pre race analysis may improve as may their betting exploits.


    Remember that's a dual group 1 winner well beaten in third who had conditions to suit yesterday. Idaho beaten 8 lengths in 4th was beaten 7 lengths in the Arc last term and 5 lengths in the King George both times by Enable. Also only beaten 5L in the Japan cup and come into this off the back of a decent win at Chester.


    Open minds fellas.
    Last edited by Danny; 2nd June 2018 at 8:04 AM.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  18. #77
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    Maybe it depends on how you define 'run his race'.

    Cracksman is an early/mid 130s horse. The highest OR of the rest was Hawkbill's 122 (I have him at 124). Salouen was 110. As you know, I'd have backed the German horse if there were three places in the market but if he had an OR it would probably have been about 115. Salouen was unlucky in last year's Derby but wouldn't necessarily have won.

    If the expectation was that Cracksman would run to his Derby form then clearly he was no good thing. Why, then, was he 2/7? Because his subsequent form elsewhere was a league apart from his Derby form. I don't recall seeing anyone on TV or reading anywhere that Cracksman was expected merely to run his Derby form before the race. They've clearly learned now, and probably once and for all, that sending him to Epsom is a very risky proposition.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  19. #78
    Senior Member Grey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    9,397
    Thanks
    882
    Thanked 912 Times in 550 Posts
    Relative to the other races yesterday the Coronation Cup was run in a very respectable time, nearly two seconds faster than the Oaks and with a faster pace per furlong than any other race on the day.

  20. #79
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,194
    Thanks
    562
    Thanked 1,222 Times in 620 Posts
    I think he hated the ground. If you watch him early, his head keeps nodding down as he hits a sticky patch, a sure indicator that a horse is struggling to handle conditions. I think he did exceptionally well in the circumstances as Salouen was given a very enterprising ride. Had Dettori not switched him up against the rail, he probably wouldn't have got there.
    tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito

  21. #80
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Bangkok Thailand
    Posts
    11,104
    Thanks
    349
    Thanked 766 Times in 655 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Biggest laugh yet making excuses for this very ordinary by classic standard animal.
    .cant get my head round why anyone would want to skip the light fandango and go there
    Formely Fist of Fury

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •