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Thread: First Season Sires.

  1. #41
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    Mark Johnston's SLADE POWER colt, Smile A Mile, is being backed (5/2>6/4) for the Newcastle 7.10.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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  3. #42
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    Two first season sire winners yesterday:

    At Pontefract Carey Street became BUNGLE INTHEJUNGLE's third success as a sire and at Windsor Gypsy Spirit provided GREGORIAN with his first.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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    Eleanora Duse (24th April 2018)

  5. #43
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    That makes the Gregorian yearlings I looked at a couple of weeks ago more interesting!

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    edgt (24th April 2018)

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    Yesterday, Beverley 2.00, Aerosphere provided First Season Sire GREGORIAN with his second winner.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  8. #45
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    In the first at Salisbury this afternoon Cotubanama provided FSS HEERAAT with his first win.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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    Eleanora Duse (29th April 2018)

  10. #46
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    From across the pond:

    5 so far each with one winner


    Cajun Breeze - Cajun Firecracker

    Abstraction - Hustle Up

    Mucho Macho Man - Mucho Amor

    Capo Bastone - Hargus

    Uncaptured - Bye Bye J
    Last edited by Racehorsematch; 29th April 2018 at 4:14 PM.

  11. #47
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    Toronado gets off the mark, but in France

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    Colin Phillips (30th April 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleanora Duse View Post
    Toronado gets off the mark, but in France
    Thanks. I haven't had time to look at the European results.

  14. #49
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    First season sire MORPHEUS got off the mark through James Watt in the first at Brighton yesterday.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  15. #50
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    As someone who has never followed this sort of thing if I could just fire a couple of questions to help me get a bit of understanding of it.

    The best First season sire, will that be judged on total prize money of their offspring this season ?

    Does it include the full flat season or are there cut off dates ?

    Is this judged on a world wide basis i.e if a sire is having winners in Australia, Meydan, Jebel Ali, Ireland,France and the States do they all count ?

    And as a general question what is this sort of thing worth to the owners or the stud ? I've never known that much about the breeding side of things other than there is an astronomical amount of money involved. I'd hear names mentioned like Saddlers wells would I take it he was the top sire of all time ? I hear bits and bobs about the money side of things and would I be right in thinking that to send a filly to be covered by say the likes of a Gallileo is around £250,000 a pop ? Is that right or have I got my wires crossed somewhere ? When a horse first goes to stud do I presume that either the owners or the stud set a price based on what he has achieved on the track and that price will alter depending on how his progeny do ? I obviously understand that horses like Classic winners and multiple group race winners would command the largest fees to start off with but then if their progeny don't do well would they reduce the price ? Does this also work the other way around ? How bad can a horse be and still go on for breeding purposes rather than be sold for meat. What would be the poorest level of a horse sent to stud ? Has there ever been a very ordinary horse who has done brilliantly at stud ? Has something like Jamaican Flight ever sired a Derby winner

    I know that's quite a lot but if anyone could give me any sort of clues as to how the process all works it might help me take an interest.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

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    Danny, to start you off; the market that the bookies puts up is on the most number of wins the progeny of a FSS achieve.

    I believe it covers the period of the full flat turf season including any winners on the A.W. in Britain and Ireland.

    Success by his progeny will definitely increase the value of the stallion but that success is more likely to be judged on quality rather than quantity and I'm not sure that would be that much kudos to being the top first season sire.

    The fact that they don't advertise the covering fees for the super stallions and you only get "price on application" tells you all you need to know.

    How bad a horse can become a stallion? Good question! If you look towards the start of this thread you will find that I put up a list of FSS and Eleanor Duse came up with figures for the number of coverings. You may find the answer there.

    My memory and my interest in the breeding side don't go back that far but someone else might come up with an answer.

    I hope that is of some help.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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    Danny (2nd May 2018)

  18. #52
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    I'd read through Col, the list of 40ish horses you put up aren't all of the first season sires are they ? There would surely be more than that. Is that just a list of horses that have produced a certain amount of offspring that could be considered contenders for being the best this year. I know these must seem like really basic questions but I have literally never took any notice of 2yo's other than possibly the big races which effect the next seasons classics but I certainly have never looked at the breeding side.

    I've noted trainers or owners saying they've bred this one their selves like with Micheal Owen and Brown Panther or the Bradstocks (did they breed Coneygree) but I just imagine they just let two horses at it behind the barn. I'm thinking that Coolmore probably doesn't operate in this manner.
    Last edited by Danny; 2nd May 2018 at 4:24 PM.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

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    You are right, Danny, it is not a complete list but the one's most likely to have sufficient runners to be worthwhile looking out for.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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    Danny (2nd May 2018)

  21. #54
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    Danny, life is full of surprises and so is the FSS title.
    Check back on the sterling work Colin has done here the last few years and you will get an inkling of how it works and surprises therein.
    Take New Approach, top two year old 2007 and Derby winner and dual 2000 Gns runner up; a big horse who improved with age and racing and not the most likely Champion FSS yet he got first two year old winner of the season, Dawn Approach, had three Royal Ascot winners from that crop and carried all before him that year with Dawn Approach top two year old.( uniquely winning opening flat race, at Royal Ascot and later Dewhurst and 2000 Guineas)
    Then last year was Dawn Approach's first crop; no winner before mid summer and less than 10 winners by year's end.Disappointing but ....
    His stock have taken time to come to themselves and this season those three year olds have hit the ground running, with a Classic prospect or two lurking.
    Sixties Icon 's first crop two year old success was a major surprise for a St Leger winner but his connections reckoned a Group 1 winning son of Galileo was worth supporting and so it proved.
    Cape Cross, Indian Ridge, Kodiac, Danehill Dancer , Siyouni are among the sires whose stud fees rose exponentially from first advertised rate to where they ended up through first crop success continuing through later crops from better bred mates.
    Keep an eye on this thread as Colin does trojan work here and Eleanora Duse among others educate the rest of us by sharing their wisdom and experience.
    Enjoy the season all the more as a result.

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to edgt For This Useful Post:

    Colin Phillips (2nd May 2018), Danny (2nd May 2018)

  23. #55
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    Tarrzan another winner for FSS BUNGLE INTHEJUNGLE this afternoon at Redcar.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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    edgt (3rd May 2018)

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    Hopefully some perceptible action over the next 2 days

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    Very slow season, seems to have been a paucity of races for 2-y-os.

    MUKHADRAM just had his first winner in the first at Nottingham's evening card.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  27. #58
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    Yesterday Curragh 2.10 Land Force the first winner for FSS NO NAY NEVER.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  28. #59
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    Yesterday, Wolverhampton 1.50 Diviner provided FSS CHARM SPIRIT with his first win and at Windsor 5.50 James Watt was a second win for MORPHEUS.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  29. #60
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    Charming Kid a winner for CHARM SPIRIT at York this afternoon.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

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