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Thread: The Domination of Mullins & Co

  1. #21
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    No problem, I did read a thread earlier today involving Clive and Hamm arguing. It read seamlessly until I noticed Clive posting that he agreed with himself. It's only when I did a double take that I in fact realised it was your post that read so much like Clive's usual offering that I was unable to differentiate between them without looking at the names.

    FWIW, I think your conclusion that "I have little time for these domination' concerns", is close enough to Bernie's not giving damn for smaller outfits, for there to be similarities. At least that's how I interpreted your denunciation of the unsuccessful trainer. What you're saying is you don't care about the concerns of one stable dominating (not unlike Aiden O'Brein as it happens). Having said that, I can equally accept that unsuccessful trainers are probably unsuccessful for a reason year after year.

    Think whatever you like. I couldn't care less what you think, and have no interest in reading the interminable lines of drivel you trot-out, in an attempt to justify your thoughts.

    NB: This is me being irascible. I'll hopefully be over it in a few days/
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 15th January 2015 at 5:56 PM.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by clivex View Post
    Its a pure meritocracy..
    I don't believe it is. More like a plutocracy actually. I think that is just a statement of fact, as opposed to having a dig at anyone.
    Last edited by marbler; 15th January 2015 at 6:06 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Bachelors Hall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clivex View Post
    this is a bit unfair on these trainers imo. Skelton and Fry have clearly picked up a lot from working with nichols but so did Alan Berry from his dad. I think they deserve a fair bit of credit.

    There is always room for small yards making chipping away and making an impact. It will always happen in the same way that small businesses will always chip away at big ones. Once a yard becomes dominated by certain owners and has a huge number of horses then clearly some owners will look for a little more personal service. Some of these owners will have money too. Nothing lasts for ever and as trainers such as Nicky the needle seemed to have become terrified of running his horses at all, then someone else will pop up and say "i can do a better job with that mate"
    I didn't mean to do Skelton and Fry a disservice as they are clearly very talented trainers in their own rights. Nevertheless, they have advantages in numerous top owners and contacts, and in Fry's case a champion hurdler, which wouldn't be afforded to the ordinary start-up trainer. As for Alan Berry, he took over the family business in the manner of a Pipe, Easterby or Hannon etc.

    I don't believe that the training game is wholly meritocratic as that implies that one only needs talent to survive which isn't the case when talented trainers, such as Alison Thorpe for example, are unable to make ends meet.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Talented trainers should always be able to make ends meet. If you can't, it's probably because you're not talented enough.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  5. #25
    Senior Member Bachelors Hall's Avatar
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    Usually but not probably.

    If fortune always and only favoured the talented then why has your favourite trainer, Mr Sherwood, been keeping his ship afloat for 31 years?

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    Untalented trainers can be lucky and indulged by owners who dont know better. But I wonder what wylie thought when tidal bay was trained by a master rather than s muppet.

    And owners will twig eventually. Traipsing around seven barrows muttering wheres my fcking horse is not ideal ownership is it
    Last edited by clivex; 15th January 2015 at 6:40 PM.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator Irish Stamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Talented trainers should always be able to make ends meet. If you can't, it's probably because you're not talented enough.
    Arguably it's because they aren't overly good at the accounting side of the business if they have the talent but can't make it pay.
    Hurricane Fly - whatever he runs in he wins

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  8. #28
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Stamp View Post
    Arguably it's because they aren't overly good at the accounting side of the business if they have the talent but can't make it pay.
    Maybe, Martin, but a trainer's job is more than 'three times up the gallop', and the Admin side needs just as much managing (possibly more so) as the rest of it.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  9. #29
    Senior Member tiggers1972's Avatar
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    Good luck staying off the tabs Grasshopper.

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  11. #30
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    To me there is no disputing there are many trainers out there as good if noy better than the man at the top Mr. PN. who is excellent btw and a brilliant bullshitter and business man. Martin Pipe before him saw an opportunty tp exploit and grabbed it with both hands. A bookmaker in the family was a great help and when they pulled off a touch or 2 they made sure everyone in racing knew about it and the gambling owners came flooding in. He would run horses on concrete if he had too. What the hell if the horsr broke down he had a list the length of his arm with mad punters wanting to put a horse with him. Perhaps not the most polular trainer in racing circles but a great business head on him. Then you look at someone like Richard Guest buying horses for tea money and winning races with them..older members remember Ken Hogg...I got rat arsed drunk with him years ago. He was a sheep farmer and a good friend of Ron Barry's and drinking buddy..Ken trained a horsr called Forest King and won just about every race going against top hirses from the likes of Gordon Richards yard. Old Norman Dalgetty ran a hotel near jeburgh and with the help of Donal Nolan pulled off massive touches with Braw lad and another couplr of horses who's names escape me. Ronnie(foster) Postlethwaite had 4 boxes at the back of his house in Norton round the corner from Pat Rohan..
    where to start wiyh the strokes he pulled off with the aid of Tony Charlton..Abandon Warrior was only one of several and Tariq I think it was called pulled of a gamble at Sedgefield that JP himself would have been proud of. There are loads of very talented trainers out there most of whom have some other talented person to bounce off of. They may not have the desires of PN or his business acumen but as far as basic traing goes they are every bit as good
    Last edited by Tanlic; 16th January 2015 at 7:07 AM.
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  12. #31
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    Sorry about typos on mobile
    Formely Fist of Fury

  13. #32
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    Nicholls is the best trainer of chasers in the UK and Ireland. Without any doubt in my opinion.
    I'm clever enough to ask the questions i'm too stupid to answer

  14. #33
    Senior Member Perpetual's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aragorn View Post
    Nicholls is the best trainer of chasers in the UK and Ireland. Without any doubt in my opinion.
    Almost impossible to disagree with this

  15. #34
    Senior Member tiggers1972's Avatar
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    Staying Chasers yes

  16. #35
    Super Moderator Irish Stamp's Avatar
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    He's not bad with his two milers either - Call Equiname, Azertyuiop, Master Minded all won the Champion Chase for him, he played a large part in the career of Flagship Uberalles too (won an Arkle for him), also Twist Magic won a couple of Tingle Creek's (Kauto Star too) and four renewals of the Maghull Novices at Aintree all over the minimum trip.

    Martin
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  17. #36
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    All of his chasers seem to last as well, something most other trainers seem to struggle with.
    I'm clever enough to ask the questions i'm too stupid to answer

  18. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aragorn View Post
    All of his chasers seem to last as well, something most other trainers seem to struggle with.

    Absolutely . He is quite a distance in front of other top trainers.No question. His handling of most of his chasers has been peerless . I also think that as much as anything sets apart a true gifted talent from the just ok. It's no coincidence that it has happened time and again with his very best whereas with some supposed genius trainers they simply disappear or fade away.
    Last edited by clivex; 17th January 2015 at 1:08 PM.

  19. #38
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    Brilliant trainer but depends how you look at it when saying who is the best.

    Nicky Henderson has the edge in my book but I wouldn't be willing to argue about it they are both excellent

    If you are talking about price money that's one thing

    If however you are talking about what's at their disposal thats another

    And if you are talking about strike rates that's a different thing again

    PN strike rate for hurdlers by the way is exactly the same for hurdlers than it is for chasers.

    Scores on the doors over the last 5 seasons

    NH FLat Henderson 30% Nichols 19%

    Hurdles Henderson 25% Nichols 23%

    Chasers Henderson 24% Nichols 23%

    Prize money Henderson wins that too by a few thousand pounds

    Nicky seems to be in front on every score
    Formely Fist of Fury

  20. #39
    Senior Member Tanlic's Avatar
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    Fingers crossed Sprinter can add to that today
    Formely Fist of Fury

  21. #40
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    Prize money Henderson wins that too by a few thousand pounds
    Not sure where you get that from, Tanlic? For starters, if that was so, you would expect Henderson to have been champion trainer more often in the period. The actual prize money figures for the 5 years, according to the RP are:

    Nicholls
    NHF 36 193 19 40 29 22 £88,897.39 £144,985.52 -48.70
    HURDLE 282 1238 23 212 163 124 £3,361,900.00 £4,902,199.25 -143.05
    CHASE 274 1187 23 199 154 104 £4,846,509.24 £7,081,867.91 -139.13
    Henderson
    NHF 103 348 30 58 42 36 £252,316.32 £334,897.32 -44.96
    HURDLE 371 1497 25 235 158 149 £3,389,153.30 £4,866,585.07 -46.96
    CHASE 166 702 24 104 70 51 £4,107,897.67 £5,521,335.47 -93.86
    Man: Do you get wafers with it?

    Salesman: Course you don't get bloody wafers with it, it's a bloody albatross isn't it ...

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