Round The Horn

[Very Very Ordinary]

At Towcester today, swear I heard Jim Old say this was the best horse he'd ever had - tannoy barely stretched to the area I was standing in.

This from the trainer of a CH winner: makes you think. You'd go a long way to see an easier winner, with all due allowance for a pretty poor race. One to keep the right side of if staying sound.

My son in law, who knows nothing about form whatsoever, duly backed the two Gerald Ham winners, at 40s and 25s, unfortunately not in a double. He added three seconds from a total of five races, whilst I doggedly perused form all afternoon and backed five out of the first four, in pretty small fields.

And it was bloody freezing.

[Grey]

It's what we love about racing.

[Steve T]

RTH very impressive, although i'd have liked it not to have crossed the line at a walk... (distance bet..)

[krizon]

Actually, it was a trot, to be pedantic.

[Irish Stamp]

If you put Collier Bay and another of his horses from that era Barristers Boy in front of him I'd be 1/10 he wouldn't know which was which.

Martin

[rorydelargy]

If you put Collier Bay and another of his horses from that era Barristers Boy in front of him I'd be 1/10 he wouldn't know which was which.

Martin

Is there a story there, Martin?

[Irish Stamp]

Sorry Rory - no story just my thoughts on Jim Old as a trainer (though wish there was a story - would be far more interesting anyway).

[Shadow Leader]

Another 'thought' on the man as a trainer - if he really thinks this is the best horse he's ever had, why in the name of God would he want to rip its guts out running it at Towcester (of all places) on barely raceable ground? The mind boggles.

[Melendez]

I associate Jim Old with over an hour's chasing around Dublin to find a bookmakers that hadn't installed these new fandangled teletext screens and therefore wouldn't notice that Mole Board had more than halved in price for the Sun Alliance. Sadly I found one.

[rorydelargy]

I associate Jim Old with over an hour's chasing around Dublin to find a bookmakers that hadn't installed these new fandangled teletext screens and therefore wouldn't notice that Mole Board had more than halved in price for the Sun Alliance. Sadly I found one.

Jim Old didn't actually train him then I don't think, or if he did he got him just before the race from Owen O'Neill, but I remember it well as I was the horse's biggest fan. The only conversation I ever had with my father on the telephone that didn't simply go "I'll get your ma", went "I saw Mole Board won yesterday and thought of you.....I'll get your ma"

[Melendez]

I still associate Jim Old with it, because I thought he trained him. Granted it makes the story a little less relevant.

[krizon]

MOLE BOARD - ahhh, there's a lovely blast from the past. Darling horse!

[G-G]

He did say he was the best horse he's ever trained.
Due to RTH's fragile legs, he loves that ground. If you watch that race back, he was thoroughly enjoying himself, Maguire didn't move a muscle and the horse won pulling up. And he is fine this morning. Jim Old may be a lot of things to some people but he is not an inconsiderate trainer. The horse comes first, second and last with him. And anyone is very wrong if one thinks he wouldn't be able to tell the difference between horses from 35 years ago let alone 15.

[Shadow Leader]

That just about proves my point for me, G-G. If he's that good a horse, why does he need that ground?!? If he can't run away from Towcester on unraceable ground he can't be the best horse he's ever trained, can he?!?!

Don't you worry Irish Stamp, you're allowed an opinion, just unfortunate to post it with sometime 'connections' of Mr Old on here!

[G-G]

For the same reason as Denman doesn't 'do' Kempton. RTH won at Wetherby last week so he can run away from Towcester. If RTH's legs didn't have the history of the problems he has had, he probably would go on better ground, but Old is not prepared to risk him. Other trainers might after the last week, but he won't, neither will the owners.

[Shadow Leader]

If you've a horse with fragile legs, you try your best to avoid heavy ground as well; it can be just as injurious as running on faster ground. Heavy going - or sticky going - pulls on the legs and can thus pull tendons/joints/ligaments around and put pressure on them.

You said that the horse would "probably would go on better ground, but Old is not prepared to risk him". I'd be worried if I had a horse that I couldn't risk running on 'better' ground than bordering on unraceable heavy ground.

My comment about not being able to run away from Towcester on unraceable ground was, fairly obviously I thought, pretty much concerning the state of the ground rather than the track itself. Towcester heavy ground is a different beast to heavy ground at a lot of other tracks, especially considering that even on better ground the track presents somewhat of a test to any horse.

So, I'm still a little confused about a horse that can seemingly only run on heavy ground (according to what G-G says) and needs 3m at Towcester on said ground, being a better horse than the likes of Collier Bay, a Champion Hurdle winner?!

[G-G]

I didn't say he can only run on heavy ground. I said he likes it.He has run on 'better' ground but he seems to prefer heavy and it causes him less problems, seemingly.
Old worries about the horse not the fact that there are limits to where they might be able to race. If RTH had heavy at Cheltenham in March, during one of the periods he was sound, he may have been able to prove that he was better than CB.
Having had both horses at home for some time and seeing them work day in day out, Old is probably in the best position to judge. If someone doesn't agree with him, doesn't him wrong.
No sorry I didn't think it was obvious what you were saying - it read as if he couldn't race away from Towcester. I know how bad the ground can be there and how tough it can be. The long climb to the finish helps some horses, mine included, as it is steady and helps those with limited capability of accelerating at the end of 2m 4 plus. My horse can cope with it but she doesn't like it.

[Shadow Leader]

G-G, you're forgetting what you yourself posted. I did even quote your line directly, that the horse "probably would go on better ground, but Old is not prepared to risk him" which is surely tantamount to saying he needs heavy ground seeing as it was nearly unraceable ground at Towcester on Sunday, according to many respected judges?

Old can say what he wants about his horses - yes, he knows them better than me - but I am also allowed to disagree with him. I am also allowed to hold dubious views on his training ability - same as others are - without being taken to task about it by someone who 'owns' a horse in the yard.

[rorydelargy]

Jim Old's a lovely bloke. NAP.

[krizon]

Shadz, you've raised a very interesting point there. The Midlands is largely clay-based soil and dahn sarf we have a looser mix, because some is chalky (like Brighton, where there's virtually only a nominal covering of topsoil, and Goodwood). The Midlands soil is, therefore, much claggier, much more sticky, than southern courses' soils. And Clerks grow different types of grass/es to suit the different areas of their courses, and from course to course, to suit soil and weather conditions.

Thus, it stands to reason that tracks around the Midlands and Welsh borders, where there's also clay soil, will be heavier in consistency and therefore more testing to pull out of. It's been very testing at Plumpton today, but even Plumpton at its boggiest is still raceable and nowhere near as holding/sticky as north of the Watford Gap.

I neither like firmer ground for jumping, or very heavy - regardless of opinions about horses 'liking' this or that, it should be ruled by one's knowledge as to what's acceptable to run on (or in!), taking into account the horse's constitution, conformation, and action. There aren't too many light-actioned chasers, for example, and some positively love boring along hard on the forehand. Those, and any with heavy action, I wouldn't put on firm ground. I'd like them to run for several years and not come back after a few runs with splints or stress fractures; conversely, I don't want them sinking without trace into a bog and, as you've quite rightly said, twanging muscles or tendons trying to pull themselves out of it.

Of course some horses are averse to certain conditions - they know that if they have poor action, they fare less well in certain circumstances and do their best to avoid putting their all in, in case they damage themselves. But you'd imagine a trainer would know that, too, and be acting in the horse's best interests. Which means running it under the optimum conditions to suit its needs, or, in Americanese, its 'run style'.

And your remarks do bring home the old adage of 'horses for courses' - there are tracks to suit pretty much any horse, but if you base your yard near to heavy-soil ones, then there's a disadvantage to your heavy or poor-actioned animals.