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Thread: Not looking good across the water

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Leader View Post
    The recurring theme throughout this debate seems to me to be that unless someone is willing to pay £25k+ on buying a horse, they shouldn't really be allowed to get involved or they are inferior to those who flash the cash.
    Nope that is not my view at all. I can guarantee you one thing, if you go around the sales without a catalogue and just look at the horses, you will pick out maybe 10, 20, 30, 40 horses.....whatever. I bet if you go in to buy them you will be disappointed if you have 5k in your pocket. 25k just gives you more options. Fair dues to those that end up with the nice one for 5k but having the extra few bob always helps you get the one you really want. I only use 25k because that is my level and I would consider myself in the middle tier of owners who could never afford one for 50k but yet wouldn't drop to 5k or 10k because my view is that the biggest expense is the money you put in training the beast for the next four years, you better at least think you have a good 'un.

    And I wouldn't be against dropping the prizemoney at the top either.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Sheikh's Avatar
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    Will you still be looking to buy at circa 25k in the current buyers market.

    Finally got a chance to read last weeks Irish Field. Tatts have an add in page A23.

    Rare bob 37k 2002 NH Sale, resold 2005 Derby Sale €125k

    Dunguib 2003 Nh Sale €13k

    Fiveforthree November Nh Sale 2002 €6k

    Barker November Nh Sale 2001 £2k punts.

  3. #123
    Senior Member krizon's Avatar
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    Take the view that whatever X cost to buy in 2007, in 2008 the price had dropped from 50% to no sale at all. In other words, whatever might've cost Cantoris's theoretical £25K before the crash, should be around a much more affordable £15K now, less if the owner's desperate to offload. So his £25K now should buy him that horse which would have cost £50K back in '07 or earlier. There's such a buyer's market now, from foals to experienced and proven animals, that almost everything's a bargain.

    I'll give you a tiny example, based on my personal (mis)fortune: bought the 5 y.o. mare DANETIME OUT (unraced) i/f to MAJESTIC MISSILE for £5000 at Goff's sales in Naas in February 2008 (oh, what terrible timing!). I'd looked at others which I'd liked, and they were costing around £38K - more than I and my friend, who was to co-own the mare with me, wanted to shell out. Nice big LINAMIX mare for £20K, all that sort of thing. But we got the DANETIME mare and eventually a healthy colt foal. By the time he went to the foal sales, the crash was underway and fingers were already getting chargrilled. He made the minimum bid at the foal sales. Okay, he's by an untried sire. Okay, he's out of an unraced mare by DANETIME, rather than DANEHILL DANCER (RIP), but £840?? He went to Ireland. We pursued, foolishly I know in retrospect, getting the mare i/f again, this time to PICCOLO, at a much reduced 'deal' of £3000. Eventually, my friend and I decided that we were just going to be hurling money at an industry which was failing, and sold her (i/f) for just £1000 to the stud which had taken her colt. Overall, a superb loss, since there was the sale entry fee of £540, transportation and preparation fees (preppers are the folks who walk your foals into the sale ring - they spend a few weeks giving them good foal feed, grooming them, and ensuring that they walk nicely to hand), and the months of keep. At least we got a home for them both, and the mare's produced a healthy filly by PICCOLO since - but even those foals of the much more expensive mares were failing to sell, and one's heard some pretty grim rumours about some foals going to the abbatoirs. So, sure, if you're in the market for a foal - you can get a nicely made, nicely-bred one for peanuts. Or, if you're like one buyer at Tattersalls, having bought one Irish foal, on checking the horsebox before driving the animal home, found it accompanied by another. The breeder said that's it, you take him, or I leave him behind - he's no value to me as he's unsold. So, BOGOF deals, too!

    This would underpin Sheikh's notes about some very cheap, successful animals being available. Time and again I'm hearing from regular owners how they're stocking up on 2 y.o.'s which they've got at bargain prices - their older horses are being retired, because now they can afford to buy two or three instead of just one.
    Power is good. Control is better. (Lenin)

  4. #124
    Senior Member Sheikh's Avatar
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    Thanks for that post Krizon. Just to add that when the horses mentioned in the Tatts add where sold it was boom time. You can see this by the fact that Rare Bob eventually went for 125k. The other three went for peanuts. Cantoris has stated that you can walk around the Sales and practically put a price on the animals before they go through the ring. This is true and this underlines the difference between a good Sales horse and a Good race horse. Two different things and the reason 3 of the 4 horses in the add where cheap during a period in Irish Bloodstock Sales when price was not a problem.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheikh View Post
    Rare Bob eventually went for 125k.
    Don't tell me about it, we made one bid on him and were blown out of the water. bought Kimberlite King instead. In 2001 when we bought Brave Inca, we bid on Central House and bowed out early.

    Well I will test the market for you guys. I've just pulled together a syndicate. Nine shares and 7 gone (including one for myself). I have two free is anyone is interested. We will be spending that €25k so let's hope we get a really nice horse....even if it's a sales horse rather than and racehorse!! I know what you mean though. Captain Bondi was a real sales horse, but not a racehorse. I won't buy a 4 year old again (although Hardy was a 4yo at the sales the year we bought Inca.....same day and all!!).

  6. #126
    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    I'm away at the moment and hotel net access appears not to work so left with phone only. So not about to spend 2hrs tapping out a reply Cantoris! I'd like to make a few comments though so will endeavour to do so at the weekend when I get back!
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

    False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

  7. #127
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    Cracking debate. Looking forward to Shadow's reply.
    ... unicorns are busiest at three o'clock in the morning.

    [COLOR=blue][I]"It is one of life's tragedies that men become what they oppose."[/I] Dr A Guirdham

    [/COLOR][COLOR=#b22222][I]"My glass always tends to be not just half-empty, but cracked with my ale seeping off the table and into my shoes..."[/I] Lydia Hislop[/COLOR]

  8. #128
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    The anticipation!!

  9. #129
    Senior Member krizon's Avatar
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    All security to their posts! All security to their posts! :-)
    Power is good. Control is better. (Lenin)

  10. #130
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    Is that the 'all clear' sounding?

    "Shadow leader has left the upper quadrant,
    threat level orange
    deflector shields still at double front
    mainatain vigilance"
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  11. #131
    Senior Member krizon's Avatar
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    She's been detained for her own safety, Warbs. :-)) (Mind you, it took six ex-firemen to do it.)
    Power is good. Control is better. (Lenin)

  12. #132
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    Really???? Excellent - can I be a security alert too - Fireman... mmmm !!!

    Back, Troods, back !!
    Just Singin' the Blues ........



  13. #133
    Senior Member krizon's Avatar
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    Too bad you're never down thisaway, missus - all of our security at Brighton's supplied by a number of hunky firemen who double-duty at the course (and at Hove Dogs). Tall, strong, good in any crisis, love their racing... could a gal ask for more?
    Power is good. Control is better. (Lenin)

  14. #134
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    ah!.............pass.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  15. #135
    Senior Member trudij's Avatar
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    I love Colin - thats no secret - but I have to be a little more keen on my trip to Brighton this year.....
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  16. #136
    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    Oh sorry, I forgot. Haven't had the energy to reply yet!

    Suffice to say that I still don't agree with a lot of what you're saying, Cantoris. Are you telling me that if you had £25k in your pocket, saw a horse you fell in love with, was good on paper, yet only went through the ring for £5k you wouldn't buy it? As that seems to be pretty much what you're saying, to me, with this quote in particular :

    I would consider myself in the middle tier of owners who could never afford one for 50k but yet wouldn't drop to 5k or 10k
    As for going around the sales without a catalogue - doesn't happen. Anyone who goes to the sales without a cataloge and without putting in the homework beforehand is an idiot, I'm afraid! Go through the catalogue, go through the pedigrees and particulars; make a list of those you like. Then you work your way through those on your list which aren't withdrawn at the sales, looking at each one individually and thoroughly. You even go back again and look at those you are thinking of bidding on twice, or even three times - in my case, out of a list of 20 odd (which is on a good day at the sales, my lists have often only held as little as 5 or 6) I can virtually guarantee there will only be 3 or 4 I'm remotely interested in bidding upon. Sometimes they surprise you and go for pennies - after doing all that work, would you turn your nose up at one because it only went for a pittance? Likewise, would you go over the amount you pre-valued the horse at whilst bidding, just because you have the cash burning a hole in your pocket?

    Having a large bank isn't the be all and end all - it's having the knowledge to pick horses out of the catalogue then having the eye to weigh one up and spot any potential defects. That still doesn't mean that the horse will make the track, or be any good on the track, but everyone is pretty much in the same boat when it comes to injuries and the likes. I for one know I'd be a lot more pissed off had I spunked £25k+ on one that was useless [and paid for its training inbetween] rather than one I'd paid less than a fifth of that amount for! It's a little bit like being one of a few in a syndicate that pay £60k for a horse that wins its bumper then gets tailed on every subsequent run before being sold for £8k, making massive losses, then winning four races for new connections.....it makes you wonder who are the biggest fools, those who bought him for £60k and sold him for £8k, or the one who 'only' paid £8k for him yet got him to win four races?!
    Last edited by Shadow Leader; 11th May 2009 at 9:05 PM.
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

    False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

  17. #137
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    One of the most interesting threads I have read anywhere....great stuff and well argued.

  18. #138
    Senior Member Harbinger's Avatar
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    Maybe Cantoris is looking to pick up a 50k horse for 25k, rather than a 25k horse for 5k?

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth Flynn View Post
    Maybe Cantoris is looking to pick up a 50k horse for 25k, rather than a 25k horse for 5k?
    Or even a €1,000,000 plus for €18,000!

  20. #140
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    They got lucky

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