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Thread: Here We Go Again....

  1. #1
    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    Watching the BBC news this evening I see that those arseholes from Animal Aid were protesting outside Plumpton today, handing out leaflets that banged on about how cruel racing is, advocating banning it, and claiming that 375 horses are killed every year (and 50-60 odd at Plumpton every year) "in the name of sport".

    For the life of me I can't see why Plumpton would allow these tossers free rein to annoy their customers and try to put them off going - I'd have had them hauled away sharpish.

    Come to think of it, if I'd realised they'd be there today I'd have gone along to tell the scummy tree-hugging parasites exactly what they could do with their bollocks assertions.
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

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    Sure why not tell us what you really think...

    If you believe people should have the right to hunt as they wish, why can these people not air their views in a peaceful fashion (assuming it was so)?
    "The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do to their fellows, because it always coincides
    with their own desires" -- Susan B. Anthony

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    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    For starters, they could try to get their facts right - I'm virtually certain that their numbers quoted are misleading at best, inflated or fictitious at worst.

    Following on from your point, why should racegoers be subjected to these cretins telling untruths about racing and trying to get their sport banned?
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

    False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

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    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    ...and nevermind the potential harm there to be done to Plumpton's (and other tracks') businesses.
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

    False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

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    Does that mean 1 in every 7 horses killed in racing perish at Plumpton. My God what are they jumping? piano wire??? or running in minefields aka Larkhill

    I have to say though Dom your rant does smack of double standards. Why should innocent shoppers be subjected to country folk clogging up their streets protesting and galloping around on half ton animals, blowing horns, and dumping animal carcases on their doorstep? This is a damn sight more disruptive and dangerous than a few people standing on what is probably public highway, handing out a leaflet (which they can't force you to take) and holding a plackard. But I assume you think that's ok for the Countryside Alliance, because you happen to agree with it? I'm sure you'll understand if people struggle to take you seriously?

    Perhaps you ought to consider that of all the contributors to this forum, you give this group more oxygen and exposure than any other poster.

    I've long held reservations about the 'dead horses' log that TH helpfully maintains for the anti brigade to source their claims through. I'd have thought that 375 was too far off, given that we don't pick up on all the horses killed at home, or those who are alleged to be mysteriosuly spirited away periodically for basically not being good enough. I suppose there's a difference between killed and died, but I wouldn't have thought 375 was wildly off the mark, and certainly within the bounds of acceptable campaigning licence. It's a drop in ocean compared to the 20,000 people who the hunting industry told us would be unemployed :laughing:
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

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    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    Connected, sort of.

    From RP

    CHELTENHAM is to continue its policy of not announcing the deaths of high-profile horses despite further criticism of the racecourse from racegoers who on Saturday left the track with no idea that Macs Joy had died.

    While viewers of Channel 4 and Racing UK were told that Macs Joy had been put down following the Boylesports.com International Hurdle, the majority of Cheltenham's paying customers were unaware of the news.

    The failure to announce the death of Macs Joy came as a surprise, since Cheltenham chief executive Edward Gillespie last month admitted a need to "better manage the flow of information" after those on course were kept in the dark about the death of Granit Jack in the Paddy Power Gold Cup.

    Cheltenham's solution is a paddock-side notice board, which on Saturday posted news of Macs Joy's death and which, for future meetings, will be brought to the attention of racegoers, the majority of whom were unaware of its presence last weekend.

    Cheltenham communications manager Andy Clifton said: "Following the incidents at the Open, we talked to a lot of people, including racegoers, owners, trainers, vets and media members, and the almost unanimous verdict was that the best approach would be for us to make the information readily available but without actually using the blunt weapon of a PA announcement.
    "Our view, and the view of several other people, particularly owners and trainers, is that announcing equine deaths over the public address represents too much of a blunt instrument."

    It is understood that Cheltenham is concerned that a section of its racegoers, including corporate hospitality clients and those with young children, would not appreciate hearing public address announcements concerning equine fatalities.

    Clifton added: "We make sure that Racing UK and Channel 4 know things as they happen, and there are clearly a lot of people on the racecourse who want to know as well, but both our view and the consensus view is that an information pitch is the right way of passing on that information."
    "The owls are not what they seem"

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    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Dec 17 2007, 07:14 PM
    Watching the BBC news this evening I see that those arseholes from Animal Aid were protesting outside Plumpton today, handing out leaflets that banged on about how cruel racing is, advocating banning it, and claiming that 375 horses are killed every year (and 50-60 odd at Plumpton every year) "in the name of sport".

    They obviously don't read their own website. The site below lists just six at Plumptonsince March 07. If fifty plus horses had lost their lives in the first three months I think we may just have noticed .

    http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/
    "The owls are not what they seem"

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    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    What are you talking about, Warbler? I assume you mean the one-off protest in Brighton during the Labour party conference, which I didn't claim to back at the time, I'm sure?

    I am a fully paid up member of the CA, 'tis true, but to my knowledge "innocent shoppers be[ing] subjected to country folk clogging up their streets protesting and galloping around on half ton animals, blowing horns, and dumping animal carcases on their doorstep?" isn't something that either the CA condone, organise or participate in. They certainly haven't tried to get me to do anything of the sort so you are wide of the mark there!
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

    False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

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    Senior Member Harbinger's Avatar
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    Whilst there's a point to be made regarding Animal Aid lying about numbers, I have no sympathy for anyone who wishes to remain ignorant about the fact that horses die on the track and who has a problem with being made aware of it - whether that be by protesters outside or an acknowledgment over the PA.

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    I have no problem with people being made aware of it - in fact to make people aware of it can only help, surely.

    However I cannot help but feel that the whole Cheltenham furore is somewhat misplaced - I do not know of a course which does broadcast over the PA that horses have lost their lives, it's certainly not a problem of Cheltenham's alone.
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

    False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

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    I was drawing on both the Labour Party conference and the much heralded countryside alliance march in London where they claimed to have mobilised 400,000. The influx of a population of that size for a day, would most certainly disrupt every day life and the public transport infrastructure etc for those wishing to use central London. I'm not sure why you should be so defensive over this though, I don't have a problem with it in honesty, and am quite radical in my own campaigning/ protesting philosophy. This I've developed over years, and I now believe there is only one way to change things, and history has proven that time and time again, (providing you're prepared to accept the consequences and sacrifices of course). What you need is a ground swell of convicted radical opinion, and then its game over. If the CA had sought to go down that route on their 'big day, lost' who knows where it might have ended. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who can give me an example of a sea change in government policy that resulted from a petition or a peaceful protest

    Where I do have a slight problem is your apparent duplicity, but it's only slight. All you're doing in essence is selecting the bits you like and the bits you don't, but you shouldn't condem the method if employing similar yourself, and then hope to retain credibility. Animal Aid remain a very small and ineffective campaign group, and are likely to remain so unless people like yourself keep feeding them publicity, or stage a confrontational set piece for them, (as you were advocating) from which they could only grow, and owe you a debt of gratitude for it.
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

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    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    Duplicity? Where does that come in when you have a set of loony bins advocating banning something through the use of fictitious figures, and people protesting against having their jobs and livelihood taken away from them led by people with no comprehension of the subject?

    I'd also say that the Countryside Marches didn't "subject innocent shoppers to clogging up their streets" having been held a few years back on a Sunday, mainly in non-retail areas!

    The big problem I have with AA is that the organisation is made up of meddling tree huggers who have virtually no knowledge of what it is that they are talking about. In short, they are kicking up for the sake of it, and not paying any heed to the livelihoods of so many thousands that they are seeking to destroy through their ignorance of the subject in hand.
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

    False face must hide what the false heart doth know.

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    SL,

    Every one should be entitled to air their opinions in a civilised and supposedly democratic society -

    “I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it, to the death”.

    There are probably some exceptions to this - inciting civial disorder etc - however, this does not include when the opinion that they are espousing is different to yours, which you seem to have a problem with - as you do on here when anyone dares to present any evidence to support the fact that Katchit may not be the second coming of Istabraq after all.
    "The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do to their fellows, because it always coincides
    with their own desires" -- Susan B. Anthony

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    Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Dec 17 2007, 08:32 PM
    I have no sympathy for anyone who wishes to remain ignorant about the fact that horses die on the track .
    Ascot did offer condolences to connections over the PA when Persian Punch died, but then a sthe whole thing happend right in front of the stands one could hardly miss it. The atmosphere had already been funereal for an hour by then.

    I suppose if the board is positioned somewhere fairly central that's OK, but Cheltenham is big and on a busy day it can be hard to get around. As usual we'll have to rely on the tomtom system - ie mobile phones. And the fact that at most courses they do tell you when a horse has got up, so if they tell you nothing...

    I agree it's mealy-mouthed but I can see their point about not wanting to put off the young or the rookie racegoer. It's a hard one to call as you can't accomodate everyone here - And owners' feeling should come first.

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    Senior Member walsworth's Avatar
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    I'm in favour of tell us like it is.
    Thinking about it now, it was the same in my biking days, they only told you good news.
    I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
    Take a bow for the new revolution

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    On the subject of the number of horses which die on the track each year, it's difficult to say whether they are including horses which die in training or just on course. I doubt c375 is much of an exaggeration, being just over 1 per day, which given on some days in winter we lose 2 or 3 seems possible - if you include deaths in the stable and at excercise it's probably an underestimate.

    Again, it's data which Weatherby's should be able to collect very easily, given every horse is regiestered with them - all they have to do is make it obligatory to inform them when and how a registed horse-in-training dies, inc at home [in box, gallops etc]. It would be in everyone's interest for this data to be collected - for one thing it would show up those trainers who lose a higher % at home.

    How to stop AA disseminating obvious lies like the number of horses killed at Plumton is difficult. Since they have published demonstrably false info in their leaflet, the course should be able to take out an injunction against them. And the Police can break up a demo for any reason inc breach of the peace.

    Warbler: the CA march was about much more than hunting, and there were probably 500,000 there - I was an Eastern Area monitor on the day helping people through the tube systems etc and out onto the march, and didn't get to the 'counting arch' at Westminster til late. There were still many thousands queuing to come down through Westminster from our direction [city & embankment] and from what I know of the march from the centre of Lodnon [Hyde Park, where coaches had dropped people form rest of country] tens of tousands got nowhere near Westminster, since coaches were still disembarking folk from the SW, Wales and esp the North/Scotland in mid afternoon, far too late for them to reach the counting point. When the police demanded the arch through which people were counted was removed at c4pm, the numbers had reached c425,000, and I reckon that was an underestimate - they were counting through 500 at a time, but there were nearer 600 for each 'click'.

    [I understand from my N London friends something similar happened on the anti-Iraq-war march - most people never got anywhere near central London; the police always grossly underestimate march numbers, as you should know].

    As one who lived in London most of my adult life, I can assure you there was no disruption to everyday life! Sundays are dead in most areas. And Westenders in the main showed huge support - I counted no more than 30 antis all day. Some Essex folk on the train going back out to the coaches told my neighbours - ex missionaries in their late 60s! who had never been on a demo before - that it was the first time they'd ever felt really safe on the train out to Dagenham, with all those lovely country folk LOL - that's true btw. There was no hostility at all from the public, and certainly not the police on duty who told us they wished we'd come more often and that the locals were so considerate and well-behaved! Rubbish was cleared up by monitors, such as it was. You had to be there...

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    Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Dec 17 2007, 07:29 PM
    For starters, they could try to get their facts right - I'm virtually certain that their numbers quoted are misleading at best, inflated or fictitious at worst.

    Following on from your point, why should racegoers be subjected to these cretins telling untruths about racing and trying to get their sport banned?
    Sounds like Animal Aid and the Countryside Alliance have more in common that you might think - both are intolerant and incapable of seeing any other point of view .

    Why should racegoers for example have to tolerate endless pro hunting propaganda when many disagree with it , find themselves intimidated if they did not agree to put one of those tedious stickers on as they did at Cheltenham - or get abused and threatened as the late Nick Hagan , a one time member of this forum did .

    As far as I am concerned AA and CA are entitled to their views and to present them peaceably no matter how much I might disagree with both of them .

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    Quite so - as long as no-one peddles demonstrably dishonest statistics in support of their view surely?

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    The 375 figure strikes me as being plausible and certainly more credible than some of the obvious rubbish the CA have come out with before now. To listen to some of their claims by contrast, you could be forgiven for thinking the UK economy would go into terminal economic meltdown if hunting were banned such was our dependency on it. For a start there's still this question mark concerning what happened to a job lot from a leading Newmarket (nay global) operation which has never been adequately resolved (for understandable reasons too) which if correct would account for nearly half the figure alone. I can only assume the Plumpton figure must be some kind of historical body count, as it's palpable nonesense to think that the Sussex course has wracked up that many in an 18 month period.

    It's a shame AA aren't able to monitor the number of fallers by course and jockey, and convert that into a percentage listed in alphabetical, or rank order as that would be useful statistic for a punter to arm themselves with. I did consider putting their site up as 'a favourite' precisely in the hope of capturing that kind of information, but in it's current format it's not really user friendly. I was surprised how many had lost their lives at Rasen, as I always their fences had a reputation for non fallers, although I think Carlisle might have overtaken them recently as the most non falling course, mind you, they seem to routinely doll off half the fences there, so perhaps that explains that.

    As regards the police under estimating protest numbers, that's been going on for centuries. I often think it's more reliable to double their estimates. The Iraq protest was the biggest in UK history by some considerable distance. Even the government acknowledge 1 million (the police claimed 750,000). Organisers said 2 million. I wouldn't call it a march, as shuffle intersperesed with periods of standign stationary would be more accurate. It took me 50 minutes just to get through Piccadiliy Circus, I'd have thought upwards of 1.5M would nearer the truth, as many people used side streets to head straight for Hyde Park.

    It struck me at the time that if the crowd had turned poll tax nasty, and stormed Whitehall that would have been it. The PM would have to have been evacuated etc as the police/ army would have to have fired on their own population. Even then it would be extrememly doubtful as to whether they had the capacity to hold enraged crowd of that size. As it happens of cours eit passed of peacefully, and because it did, Blair took no notice. I friend of mine however did remark on the journey home that we'd just "taken part in the end of Blair" and that "he'd be gone in 12 months". I took his bet, as I thought he was wrong. He was as it transpired, but at another level, he was probably right, as Blair never recovered from Iraq, and the issue would hound all the way to the point where he was levered from office. The thing about that protest though, is it brought people who weren't the usual suspects into play, and for the first time a lot of the surburban commuter C1 voters were saying 'No' and for a brief period some felt empowered and a sense of sincere conviction in what they were doing. To some extent a dye was cast in their mind set that Saturday in February, and the government never recovered it. Remember too that we still represented a minority view in the country and the media when that took place. Over the following months the whole Iraq lie was stripped naked and exposed for what it was, and despite being called lots of names at the time, (including by some servicemen who would go onto to be killed and have their case plastered over the media by relatives) peopel gradually came round to our way of thinking, to the point where I'm struck to day by the numkber of people who claim to have been against the war from the outset. You could be forgiven for thinking that 80% of the country were to listen to the retro re-writing of history, when in actual fact it was more like 30%.
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

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    Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Dec 17 2007, 10:34 PM

    The big problem I have with AA is that the organisation is made up of meddling tree huggers who have virtually no knowledge of what it is that they are talking about. In short, they are kicking up for the sake of it, and not paying any heed to the livelihoods of so many thousands that they are seeking to destroy through their ignorance of the subject in hand.
    I'm with Shadow Leader here, although I didn't realise that Britains premier breakdown service were quite that bad.

    The answer is surely never employ a mechanic who has lived part of his life in a forest.

    I'm not sure about them putting my livelihood at risk though as I'm sure my boss would understand if I was late because my car wouldn't start.

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