Noel Meade's Stable

[Bobbyjo]

Does he have arguably the strongest team he's ever had?

Now, I know that most racing insiders suspect that..as usual...the stable form will trail off after Christmas but leaving that aside I'm not sure if he's ever had the yard packed with such potential. It seems that every bloody race at the moment is throwing up a good quality Meade horse either for now or for the long term.

Champion Hurdle wise he's got Harchibald, Jazz Messenger and Aitmatov.

In the novice chasing division he's got Nicanor and Aran Concerto to come and has had a few winners in Beginners Chases recently. Casey Jones should prove decent.

But it's in the Novice Hurdle department and Bumpers where he seems to be quite strong...

Muirhead looks very good

Jered, Narquois, [Mick The Man - he could still be ok trackside!!], Sigma Digital, Mr Muji and Rinroe have a fair bit to recommend them,

Potentially alright novices who look made for fences include Parson's Pistol and Gem Daly

We've yet to see Townabrack or Attercliffe yet

And bumper wise he's had a few winners of late but surely Corskeagh Royale who won today looks a bit special. Lifes Star is still to come back too.

Yes, maybe he's got them all primed for the 'wrong' time of year again but he surely has the ammunition now to really make an impact in the New Year even if a few do trail off as seems the norm

[trackside528]

Definitely Bobbyjo..

Muirhead and Jered both very good 2m novices, while Gem Daly is a fair staying novice, though he's really a chaser to be honest..

No more needs to be said about his strength in the hurdling division..

Best novice chasers yet to be seen, with the likes of Nicanor and Snow Tern expected in the new year, as well as the monster known as Aran Concerto..

One thing though: please edit your post and fix the obvious typo that seems to have slipped in between Narquois and Sigma Digital. Cheers.

[Guest_]

You answered the main question and also posed the next one bobbyjo. Has them in sparkling form right now and they look world beaters...but will the majority of them still be in such form come Cheltenham? I dont know.

[Warbler]

Along with the "this is the weakest Derby in living memory" (usually posted around the end of May) this assertion that Noel Meade has his strongest ever festival hand is also something of an annual one isn't it.

I suppose to some extent it depends on how you set your compass? I tend to do so by using Cheltenham and then working down from this high point. Persoanlly I'd prefer to judge him on his record, rather than his potential, and history strongly suggests that if you allow yourself to become seduced by his Autumn, early Winter form, and think he'll carry it through to the Cotswolds, then you'll lose!!! Don't do it.

In any case I think PJN could well re-write history this year given his strength in depth, and calibre of the ammunition he has at his disposal. In the past we've seen Pipe launching campagins based on overwhelming numbers, and bit of plotting, and ability etc But where as a lot of the 'big' prizes might have alluded Pipe, Nicholls looks like he could harvest them, on top what he can pick up in the Novice events and handicaps.

CC = Twist Magic
GC = Denman, Kauto
World Hurdle = Star de Mohaison?

[Bobbyjo]

strongest ever festival hand

When did I say this?

[Warbler]

Selective editing on your part BJ, where did i say you said it? I distinctly use the word "assertion" which is of course more ambigious and open to clarification/ interpretation, should your opening question not have been of a rhetorical nature. I reproduce it for you verbatim. I suppose implied would have been a better word, as if something is expressed as an assertion, it's a bit between the both.

"Does he have arguably the strongest team he's ever had?"

It's not a statement that he has, as clearly its a question. Is it an assertion? I think it's reasonable to interpret it thus. If you wanted to suggest for instance, that he had a weak team, would you ask the same question "does he have his strongest team?" with the view to stimulating a debate that concluded the opposite. hence the use of the word "assertion" you do afterall, go onto seemingly endorse some of the stables leading contenders in glowing terms.

The reference specific to the festival was something I introduced, but only did so after introducing the idea of where you "set your compass" (which in truth is perhaps where the debate should be going rather than the semantics of language).

The problem with this is we hear the same thing about Noel Meade year after year, and year after year it seems, come March, he flops.

[Bobbyjo]

Well to get into semantics your reference to 'this assertion' would suggest that the earlier post incinuated that he would have a strong hand for Cheltenham this year

That wouldn't be the point I was making. He has a lot of potential in his yard at the moment. Previously, you might have been looking at a case where you've got horses who look like they might make an impact in a given year but not necessarily too far beyond...Triumph Hurdle candidates etc etc which he's had a fair few of. He's got a fair few promising horses of 'jumping stock' in his care at the moment that should hopefully have a bit more longetivity in them. Then again, the likes of Cardinal Hill were luckless and never got very far.

With relation to my earlier post, I would suggest that the likes of Gem Daly, the Parsons Pistol etc are long term prospects who have a future far beyond next March and should thrive beyond then should they keep sound. The same point could be made about a number of the novice hurdlers and the bumper winners he is churning out at the moment. I wasn't suggesting that he would do a clean sweep of the Supreme, Sun Alliance and Brit Insurance!!!

This is not the kind of thread where Festival success is the be all and end all. The point is that he has enough strength in depth to ensure that this time next year he should have a very strong hand of novice chasers/second season hurdlers ready to be contenders for a lot of the major prizes both at Christmas, and the various Festivals which conclude the season - and crucially they should be the kind of animal which keep coming back rather than fading away after early promise.

[Warbler]

It's hardly original, but I wouldn't look much further than Nicholls for chasers this year. Every now and then something is straight forward and doesn't require us to find an edge and over extend ourselves.

I can easily see him picking up the Gold Cup, the Champion Chase and the SAC. If he and Ogden decide that Star de Mohaison is serving no point in being the stables fourth choice in the GC (dependent on where Taranis goes) then I can easily foresee him trying to re-route this one into what looks like a weaker then usual, and potentially vulnerable big prize such as the stayers hurdle. Taranis will probably defend his title his title I'd have thought, but will find life a bit harder this year, since the race is threatening to bubble up into a very competitive affair which not too many commentators appear to have latched onto yet.

MWDS, The Listener, Aces Four, Monets Garden & Taranis are just a few that come to mind. It might just be the race of the week come March time.

Given that Ogden has Exotic Dancer in the GC, and Nicholls has KS and Den, I can easily foresee that in order to avoid duplicating effort in what looks likely to be a futile assault anyway, that both key parties could easily justify aiming the 2006 SAC winner (who was the youngest in the races history) at the staying hurdles division instead?

What price anyone???????

[happyaslarry]

noel meade has a good squad, his best ever? doubtful.

90% of trainers are creatures of habit and they generally follow a discernible pattern.

noel meade is excellent with bumper horses.
one of the best with novice and pattern grade hurdlers.
and poor with chasers given that so many of the hurdlers that he sends chasing have very high hurdle marks and as a rule fail to reach the same level over fences.

he is one of the top national hunt trainers in these islands for the last ten years, and it is ten years since he turned his hand to concentrating on the jump game, the simple fact that he has not produced one proper champion chase or gold cup candidate is a black mark. (harbour pilot did run well in a gold cup but faltered when it counted).

meade has the backing to spend heavy and it beggars belief that with 120 horses bluebloods in his stable that he cannot develop a proper championship class chaser. his training style is tailored towards hurdlers not chasers and the question which arises, is will this leopard ever change his spots.

meade is as predictable as night follows day, and you can take all the talk of best ever squad as complete claptrap, unless the evidence is presented in the winning of big races at cheltenham rather than the mickey mouse preliminaries.

[granger]

His lack of a top class chaser has always prevented me from totally warming to Meade

[Garney]

I think its undoubtedly Meade's best squad. To think that he has Iftitaf as well over hurdles, but lost him. Never has he had such strength in depth. Not really surely what Warbler's point is. I think the idea of a hot-pot novice being a short price fav for a chelt race is a different one. (Sweet Wake and of course Aran Concerto)

Harbour Pilot did jump the last in the Gold Cup in front, and threw away two hennessey's (one at Newb, and one in Leop) with sloppy jumping.

Nicky Henderson as far as I can remember never had a championship class chaser, staying chaser at least. Because the man never won a gold cup or a king george, doesnt make him anything other than a top class trainer.

[Shadow Leader]

I dunno, Marlborough and Trabolgan weren't too bad - the former named won the "consolation" Gold Cup at Sandown the year of foot and mouth. I realise he wasn't a staying chaser but Remittance Man did ok too!

[Flagship uberalles]

Originally posted by Garney@Dec 17 2007, 11:33 AM
Nicky Henderson as far as I can remember never had a championship class chaser, staying chaser at least. Because the man never won a gold cup or a king george, doesnt make him anything other than a top class trainer.

Marlborough? Career high RPR of 170, numerous performances in the 160's.

Championship class in most years, I would have thought.

[Guest_]

If Marlborough qualifies then Harbour Pilot surely does. How long has Henderson been training?

[Shadow Leader]

Again not a staying chaser but fir the sake of the argument "Nicky Henderson has never had Championship class chasers" Tiutchev should be mentioned - he won the Arkle when with Nicky as well as at least two more Grade 1s.

Bacchanal was a little off the top of the pile but didn't disgrace himself either.

[Shadow Leader]

My points are entirely to do with Nicky Henderson btw - I'm not getting into pointless comparisons between trainers!!! :P

[Garney]

Jaysus lads.

I know what I was saying. Trabolgan won a Hennessey and a Sun Allaince Chase. But for him, he wouldnt have won those two races either, IIRC. Did Marlborough win a Grade 1? He did finish second to Best Mate in a King George.

He has won 1 QM (Remittance Man) no Gold Cup, (has he even had a placed horse in a gold Cup?), no grand nationals (placed in a few i think, The Tsarevitch and Zongalero. Was just making the point, that it doesnt mean he isnt a top class trainer.

[Garney]

NH has had tons of good horses over the years, and lots of grade 1 winners, especially novices. Tiutchev of course did get beaten by old ploding slowpoke Beef or Salmon at Punchestown over 2m4f.

[Shadow Leader]

In all fairness there are grounds to think that Marlborough would have run well in the 01 Gold Cup - he did win the G1 consolation Gold Cup at Sandown after all.

[Garney]

He did SL. And I did miss that. I dont think it was a particularly strong grade 1, but a grade 1 nonetheless. Twice tried in the Gold Cup and failed, and but for a mistake would probably have won a KG.