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Thread: Purpose Of A Fence?

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    Is it to test a horse's jumping ability or is it there to catch a horse out? I am of course referring to the down hill fences at Cheltenham, particularly the second last where we lost Granit Jack yesterday.

    This is not a knee jerk reaction as its something that has bugged me for some time. In my opinion there is something fundamentally wrong if a horse jumps a fence well and cleanly yet still gets punished with a fall. It happened in last years Arkle....My Way De Solzen made a mistake at the second last but lost little momenteum where as Dont Push It jumped it cleanly but was "caught out" by the drop. I seem to remember Risk Assessor seemed to peck badly or fall at that fence repeatidly. The horse can clearly judge a fence when he is approaching it..and if he makes a mistake or a bad one he deserves to fall (thats the nature of jump racing) but I genuinely think the steep landing at these fences (at a time when the horses are really pressing on) is unfair.

    This is all in the context of my general concerns about the quality of fence in England. So often you will see a horse make a mistake at a fence but not "suffer" for it...this leads to lack of respect for the fences on the horse's behalf which in itself leads to poorer jumping quality in the future.

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    Senior Member betsmate's Avatar
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    Not attempting to answer your question, but interesting that it is almost precisely one year to the day that Gareth Flynn wrote this:

    "If someone made the argument to me that racing was cruel, I'd tell them that the horses are bred to race, that (most of the time!) every fibre in their being has been constructed from the genetic material of other horses who have raced themselves, and that not giving them the opportunity to explore the limits of their amazing physical capabilities would be to deny to them something that every last sinew in their body is crying out for.

    If they then asked me to justify sticking great big obstacles in their way, however, I'd probably be in trouble."


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    Very nicely put.

    Lets face it, very few of us want to be rid of National Hunt racing....far from it. But its hard to justify it if were going to have fences that by their very nature are there to trick or catch a horse out. Its a case of holding your breath watching horses come down the hill now at Cheltenham.

    Cheltenham leave out fences if the sun is blinding the horses and jockeys in the home straight....the down hill fences are no different in that the horse cannot see or judge the different drop off of the landing.

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    Super Moderator Irish Stamp's Avatar
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    Interesting you mention this Gal as I was thinking about this today. There's two courses at Cheltenham (old and new) as I'm sure we all know. Would it not be possible to cut out the downhill/uphill part of the course?

    There's a clear straight at Cheltenham which provided the dimensions are right for the various courses could result in no uphill or downhill fences (the chief at Cheltenham informed us all today via the telly that the problem fence is actually uphill not downhill) and a straight run of 4 fences for the big races at the Festival and these major meetings - it would still include a slope from what I've seen of Cheltenham but would lack any fences and as such would reduce the capacity for a fall.
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    National Hunt racing is meant to replicate running across country which by its nature is neither always flat nor without obstacles. In general, the authorities seem to have made every effort not to make fences unfair eg. the changes at Aintree, resiting of 'Clever Trevor' at Ludlow and the changes to the second last at Cheltenham.
    It may be that the landing side at Cheltenham needs more levelling but jumping downhill is just as much part of the art as jumping on the level or uphill. The downhill straight at Fontwell is difficult and worrying for connections as is the back at Plumpton, the first after the home straight at Sandown and Towcester and other similar obstacles but they aren't unknown quantities and riders make allowances in how the fence is approached. Possibly, at Cheltenham because the fence is around where the race is taking shape, riders tend to lose focus on the fence and think of the final 3 furlongs or so. It can be argued that fences very close together near the end of a race as at, I think, Galway and Down Royal are just as 'unfair'. Likewise, the banks courses are unusual and need to be ridden properly.
    As for Gareth's comment, horses are bred to jump as much as they are bred to race.
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    I fully appreciate where you are all coming from but any changes have to be thought through fully before implemented.

    I don't like the idea of taking the uphill/downhill parts of the course. Do we want uniform courses? Part of the intrigue of racing is contained in the diversity of the courses. Cheltenham is about the undulations.

    Aintree is a flat track but even the Mildmay course is considered a very tricky course for jumpers.

    Also, do we get rid of the Grand Nationa altogether?

    I certainly would be in favour of getting rid of the water jumps from British courses. Personally, I believed that Willyanwoody was put off by the water jump on both circuits yesterday. I don't think it helped that he dragged his legs through it twice. Nous Voila, whose jumping was admittefly poor anyway, looked spooked by it this afternoon.

    Some alterations would be okay but we need to be careful not to remove the character and uniqueness of our courses.

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    National Hunt racing is meant to replicate running across country
    Is that not what the cross country races are?

    It may be that the landing side at Cheltenham needs more levelling but jumping downhill is just as much part of the art as jumping on the level or uphill.
    I have no problem with them racing or jumping down hill-the problem is the landing part of the jump which should be raised (as it has been done previously).

    Its not a case of making jumping easier or less taxing...its about making it fair. Reference to fences close together etc is completely different. When fences are close together e.g the railway fences at Sandown the horse can see the test that lies ahead. Jumping a fence with a severe drop off is unfair as the horse has no way of knowing the drop is there.

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    Senior Member uncle goober's Avatar
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    Gal, those two fences are not drop fences. Its just that they are going quick having come downhill. The actual take off and landings are level.
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    Interesting contributions, but one element that hasn't been mentioned so far, is the end-to-end style of racing that has developed over the last 20 years or so.

    We can "blame" messrs Pipe and Dickinson for this, I suppose, for getting horses really fit so they can blast off right from the start and run their rivals off their feet, with victory going to the last man standing.

    This attritional style, rather reminiscent of American dirt racing, means that horses are more fatigued in the latter stages of a race than they used to be. Certainly, they need to be able to stay the distance more thoroughly than they used to.

    In the "good old days", races used to run at a relatively sedate pace for the first half, then quickening up in the last mile or so. This meant that horses were relatively fresher coming to the last few obstacles, including "that fence" at Cheltenham.

    Quite what can be done about this aspect of the problem is hard to know, we can't uninvent interval training.

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    Apologies to those who read FF; I'm cutting and pasting what I put on there with regards to "that" fence at Cheltenham (I'm fecking knackered, alright?!?!)

    The biggest problem is that the fence needs to be ridden properly. The jockeys should hold their horses together on the ascent down the hill and in the approach to the fence to keep them balanced then they are far less likely to "topple over due to the momentum" which seems to have been suggested by one or two in the press and/or on here. When you look at the type of fences jumped in eventing, in hunting, or even just out hacking that fence isn't especially tricky. It needs a bit of thought going into it to hold the animals together.

    Also, as I put earlier in that thread, another big problem nowadays (that doesn't apply in the case of Granit Jack) is that so many racecourses are dumbing down their fences so that they are soft like sponges with the result that horses [and jockeys!] no longer respect them as much and brush through them or take liberties with them. Faced with tracks where the fences are not quite as soft as some others they meet trouble.
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    Is it only my impression or do more horses fall jumping THAT fence towards the end of the race, as opposite to e.g. on the first circuit ? As Paul Nicholls said in the case of Granit Jack, it was the speed that propelled him to the ground on landing, as is the case in Champion Chase when they all start going for home! Surely the taking off - / landing side are level, but the horses come there with extra tempo. Surely nobody wants all equal tracks, but it seems unfair to ask horses to jump a fence at that point when through no fault of its own it might not have any chance of landing proper. I understand that in the case of Granit Jack it WAS "only" an accident, but he lost his life for this; so fair point for raising this again, as does the Racing Post on its cover today too.
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    A question about the relative speeds of flat and jumps racing:

    In flat races, I have read that the last few furlongs of most competive races tend to be slower than the first.

    Is this also the case for NH races? Given the competitive nature of Cheltenham races, most seem to be run at a high tempo throughout. If this is indeed the case, then it seems likely to me that they will actually be going slower on a second circuit than on the first.

    Does anyone have any stats as to which circuit has the most fallers for the fence in question? If it turns out that they are indeed travelling slower on the second circuit than the first yet it is claiming more casualties, then perhaps the strategy and approach of the jockeys' when taking this fence should be open to more question.
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    Senior Member Shadow Leader's Avatar
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    The Racing Post article also puts forward the views of many racing professionals, jockeys and trainers included, and the overwhelming view was that the fence does not need alterations as it is not dangerous.
    Moderation is a fatal thing. Nothing succeeds like excess.

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    Originally posted by Flagship uberalles@Nov 19 2007, 11:59 AM
    A question about the relative speeds of flat and jumps racing:

    In flat races, I have read that the last few furlongs of most competive races tend to be slower than the first.

    Is this also the case for NH races? Given the competitive nature of Cheltenham races, most seem to be run at a high tempo throughout. If this is indeed the case, then it seems likely to me that they will actually be going slower on a second circuit than on the first.

    Does anyone have any stats as to which circuit has the most fallers for the fence in question? If it turns out that they are indeed travelling slower on the second circuit than the first yet it is claiming more casualties, then perhaps the strategy and approach of the jockeys' when taking this fence should be open to more question.
    A very interesting point FU - sectional timing for Cheltenham !

    Surely they have always come down that hill at speed .

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