Kauto Star

[landlark]

Well i know a lot of you rate him and some dont but after the defeat by Monets Garden we now know through the form lines of Monets Garden,Exotic Dancer and Taranis that Kauto is almost a stone better than anything on this planet and at levels he is unbeatable!!! There can only be one danger and that is from Denman over 3mile+ so in the Gold Cup at Cheltenham surely the bet of the season is a F/C or R/FC Kauto Star and Denman its a pity you cant have anti-post betting for that 20/1 for those two in correct order on the day would be a nice bet. After all now we know how much better Kauto Star is and the question we should ask ourselves is Are the opposition just a bad bunch i mean look at last years Gold Cup result with the likes of Turpin Green, Cane Brake, Monkerhostin,State of Play all in the first six! If any of those won a Gold Cup we would be saying its the worst winner we have ever seen of a Gold Cup.

[Isinglass]

I would not disagree with you. I love Kauto and have done even before he won his Tingle Creek as a youngster, but I would also love to see him get some real competition in the Gold Cup. Otherwise we end up with a situ as we had with Best Mate where although you could see he was a superior being but what he has beaten is not.

I mean can you imagine seeing Matey and kauto take each other on for instance - what a spectacle that would be! Mayey's superb jumping and Kauto piling on the speed.

Would be nice if Kicking King and War of Attrition were something like their old selves and at least made the race intresting, as in Best mate's first Gold Cup when Looks Like Trouble jumped like a stag all round until his old injury told and See More Business filled third place and gave the race a bit of authenticity.

I am big Denman fan, but without Ruby I cannot see him winning the Gold Cup.

Then again if Kauto did trip up, for whatever reason, Exotic Dancer and Denman would surely be right there. Not to mention My Way de Solzen, if he stays that trip on that track. What do you think?

Maybe an unknown quantity will emerge this season?

[Shadow Leader]

Nothing, I repeat nothing, is unbeatable. Hells bells, this "unbeatable" horse has already been beaten this season!

There are a few decent novices coming through from last season, My Way De Solzen is the one I think will be the real deal. The horse will undoubtedly be a better animal over 3m+ yet he still had the class to walk the Arkle, fallers or not. He could be very special.

Also, if you are using the argument that last season's Gold Cup was poor, surely you are devaluing your own argument?

[harry]

Definately not unbeatable.
Ever since i have been following racing "1989" a new superhorse usually appears every year and last seasons superhorse usually fails to train on. True Best Mate was an exception but Master Oats, Imperial call, War Of Attrition etc all appeared relatively quickly and this year could see another crop of talent develop.
I hope so!!

[rorydelargy]

It would take a brave man to stack up his collateral form argument on a four runner sr=tart of season chase. I did argue vociferously with one forumite last year about Kauto Star's ability ~ on that occasion I argued that we couldn't deny his impending greatness. This year I'm not so sure about what he's going to do.

History has shown that the chasing greats are always vulnerable (even Arkle wasn't strictly unbeatable) and he didn't travel anywhere near as well as he can at Aintree. The formbook suggests it was a huge run, but the evidence of the eyes casts some doubt. He may just be getting a little lazy but he had a desperately hard season last year, despite the apparent ease of his victories and it remains to be seen whether he can maintain that level of form, let alone build on it again.

Of course, he can afford to run 7-10lbs below his best and still carry all before him and even if he fails to defend his crown, he will have proven himself one of the very best since Arkle on last year's form alone.

[Guest_]

Kauto Star is obviously the one to beat in all his races but I await My Way De Solzen with great interest. Really caught my imagination in the Arkle.

[cheltboy]

I am a great KS fan. But having seen My Way De Solzen jump around Cheltenham on his two runs last season I have changed camps. Thornton told our local paper MDS was being aimed at Gold Cup.

[jairducochetfan]

I was dead against My Way De Solzen in the Arkle last year and was amazed he had the pace to win it. I didn't think he was up to winning the stayers the year before either but he keeps on surprising and I think he would be the one to take advantage if Kauto Star is about 10 pounds below his best this season. Denman has more to prove than MWDS in my book.

[Desert Orchid]

Given the kind of ratings KS has been chalking up in the last twelve months, any of the challengers would need to be in the class of Desert Orchid at his best to beat him. That's a tall order.

[Bar the Bull]

Kauto Star looked a monster last year. It was a decent first time out run the other day. I think he will win the Gold Cup.

But he is not the good thing that landlark makes out.

[Garney]

I think Kauto Star is more beatable now than he was at the start of the year. Thought his last run and the Nicholls reaction to blaming everything around him (ground, distance, course, fitness) raised a lot of questions in my mind.

[clivex]

King is hardly bullish about MWDS's ability to stay GC distant in todays RP, but hes definately the one for me if KS doesnt bounce back

Kauto could be a lot more vulnerable to MWDS at kempton though.

[landlark]

Hi Shadow Leader, My question is are they a weak bunch or is Kauto Star that good? If they are not then Kauto is very special. One thing for sure is that Monets Garden is not in the weak catagory so to give a class horse like him weight sort of backs up the superstar image Kauto Star has. True if My Way de Solzen runs in it then things could be different.

[Garney]

Only if Monet's Garden ran to form though.

[an capall]

Best Mate where although you could see he was a superior being

(ps.. Shadow - Ribot was unbeatable.)

[Harbinger]

If Kauto isn't a true great, how will we spot one when they do come along?

[Maruco]

If Kauto is capable of posting similar figures to last year it will take a very special horse indeed to beat him at level weights. In reality we have to look at last seasons novices to do so, and Denman would be the one that would give you hope. Denman looks like the good old fashioned staying chaser who stays on all the way to the line, whereas Kauto is one of those very rare horses that still exhibits speed and class at the end of a tough staying chase. Horses like him come around very rarely and people are quite right ot be excited. The truth is though a few question marks were raised at Aintree despite giving lumps away to classy horse in his own right that had the benefit of running under his optimum conditions. We'll get our answers at Haydock when he returns but my impression was that Aintree will have put him spot on. If he runs to the same level as last year and his jumping holds up he won't be beaten again this season unless we see something very special, and to get two of them amongst the same generation is highly unlikely.

[Shadow Leader]

Monet's Garden is a good horse, true, but he was tying up badly in the latter stages of the race and Kauto still couldn't get close to him. Similar to Garney (I think it was him!!) I can't really buy the sudden influx of excuses Nicholls is offering up for him - I find it hard to believe that a horse who won the Tingle Creek so decisively from the subsequent Champion Chaser less than a year previously can suddenly not have the speed to compete at 2m4f tbh. In my eyes, the horse will have to post impressive performances consistently again this season before anyone can even think about labelling him as a superstar ~ people nowadays [the media is most guilty of it, true] seem so desperate to label horses as superstars before they have categorically proved so - why?!

AC - you're making it look like I made that quote about Best Mate!!!!

[rorydelargy]

Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Nov 13 2007, 09:00 PM
In my eyes, the horse will have to post impressive performances consistently again this season before anyone can even think about labelling him as a superstar ~ people nowadays [the media is most guilty of it, true] seem so desperate to label horses as superstars before they have categorically proved so - why?!

Yes love, but he IS a superstar! Who was the last horse to win a Tingle Creek and a Gold Cup?

[Shadow Leader]

I don't care - I don't think he is a superstar. A very good horse, yes - but people are too busy falling over themselves in order to label horses superstars all too quickly.