Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 72

Thread: Misuse of the whip at Cheltenham

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    5,458
    Thanks
    29
    Thanked 68 Times in 41 Posts

    Misuse of the whip at Cheltenham

    Time to disqualify those who breach the whip rules?

    There were some shocking breaches especially by the amateur jockeys at the Festival . I would suggest minor breaches forfeit 25% of the prize money and serious breach should lead to disqualification.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Waterford
    Posts
    8,253
    Thanks
    265
    Thanked 317 Times in 251 Posts
    Absolute nonsense -would penalise punters & owners -not a good move with a sport in danger of becoming irrelevant.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Waterford
    Posts
    8,253
    Thanks
    265
    Thanked 317 Times in 251 Posts
    Might Bite was the horse that could have saved the festival for me -in my opinion Johnson should get a knighthood for the ride he gave Native River -Nico de Boinville had no complaints this morning on RUK.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Frankel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    4,766
    Thanks
    77
    Thanked 175 Times in 161 Posts
    Rathvinden on the other hand...
    All comers, all grounds, all beaten!

    This perfect mix of poetry and destruction.

  5. #5
    Senior Member tiggers1972's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Cheltenham
    Posts
    3,687
    Thanks
    346
    Thanked 379 Times in 314 Posts
    They've got to do something, otherwise why have the rules?

  6. #6
    Senior Member G-G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not got much to lose.
    Posts
    3,187
    Thanks
    726
    Thanked 471 Times in 295 Posts
    Don't take it out on the owners. As said in another thread, make the bans longer ( and fines heavier maybe) and make the bans come into effective with immediate effect. Six days now, make it 3 weeks. The jockey is the only one wielding the whip, he/she should be the only one punished, no one has control over them during the race.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,410
    Thanks
    600
    Thanked 581 Times in 486 Posts

    Misuse of the whip at Cheltenham

    If jockeys knew they had the threat of disqualification hanging over them that would be a powerful incentive to obey the rules

    As for penalising punters what about those who backed a horse that gets beaten a neck by one whose jockey infringed eg Ms Parfois

    Agree the whip offence probably made no difference to the GC result



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by viking; 18th March 2018 at 11:09 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    This is an argument that recurs regularly after a controversial race.

    The controversy can be removed long term by having a simple rule: break the rule and you lose the race.

    In the short term there will be debate about it but once people accept that there will be a disqualification the over/mis-use will stop.

    If it means disqualifying the first two or three in a race so be it. We see it in olympic sports. It can happen.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,272
    Thanks
    628
    Thanked 489 Times in 302 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    This is an argument that recurs regularly after a controversial race.

    The controversy can be removed long term by having a simple rule: break the rule and you lose the race.

    In the short term there will be debate about it but once people accept that there will be a disqualification the over/mis-use will stop.

    If it means disqualifying the first two or three in a race so be it. We see it in olympic sports. It can happen.
    Agree completely Des I've posted similar thoughts over at my place.

    If a couple more cracks of the whip to ensure victory in any big race is what it takes and the punishment remains a few days holiday then it will always keep happening because the prize and the glory outweighs the punishment.

    What you'd find is that very few horses would ever be disqualified under the those rules. If a jockey knew he was going to be disqualified from the Gold Cup for over use then I'd guarantee the horse would only receive the maximum number of cracks and not one more.

    You'd obviously have to find some way of ensuring that jockey's could take corrective measures even after using the maximum amount though from just a safety perspective.

    That is the way to ensure the rules are kept.

    That said I've never been in agreement with the rules in the first place though tbh. I think they were rules brought in only to appease the general public and the animal rights brigade who are less informed than the people involved in the training and the riding of the horses. The only people IMO who should make decisions on the use of the whip should be jockeys. If the majority of jockeys thought that the number of hits should be limited then fair enough but I very much doubt that would be the case.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Talbot Green
    Posts
    13,268
    Thanks
    2,133
    Thanked 958 Times in 720 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Perhaps owners' thoughts on the subject would be enlightening. It is, after all, their horse that is being and they are the ones whose prize money being affected. The trainers and jockeys are ,after all is said and done, their employees.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  11. #11
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,930
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    I think by all means canvass their views but I would be surprised if the majority favoured disqualification.

    Most of the big owners, I suspect, don't give a damn about how their horses are treated during a race. I suspect a lot of them would take the Ted Walsh view [that if they're in with a chance they want the jockey to "tear rashers off them"].
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Talbot Green
    Posts
    13,268
    Thanks
    2,133
    Thanked 958 Times in 720 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    You may well be right, DO, but I still think it would be nice to see how the owners view it.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,891
    Thanks
    84
    Thanked 318 Times in 204 Posts
    If the best player in the team keeps getting red carded and doesnt change his behaviour, less talented players get picked.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    3,657
    Thanks
    742
    Thanked 900 Times in 590 Posts
    I've never had one of mine abused so I can't predict how I would react if my jockey was done and the horse disqualified. Judging by the scenes in the betting ring last week, I'd like to think that it would be with more grace than shown by your average punter. I'd certainly take a different view to 'abuse' of a young/immature horse compared to a seasoned pro.
    Just so that everyone is talking the same language, this is the PJA summary of the regulations:
    http://www.thepja.co.uk/members-info...ory/useofwhip/

    The first point that I'd make is that, for me, this is a subjective issue in the sense that it's the subject of any abuse that is most important. However, it's also subjective in the sense that evil, like beauty, is in the ye of the beholder. In that secondary meaning, I find it ludicrous that the same whip rules apply to a 2yo having it's first run as do to a 10yo chaser having its forty first. I'm guessing that the average flat race distance is about 7 furlongs compared to maybe 20 furlongs over jumps so to have the whip thresholds at 7 and 8 respectively is wrong. Now I'd be in favour of banning the racing of 2yos but, if it must be done I'd like to see the whip threshold be much reduced to, say, 3 strokes. On the flat, for 3yos it could rise to 6 and older horses could stay at 7. For NH racing, bumpers and races for 3yos and 4yos only could work with 6 and older horses rather more, say 10.

    The whip is a vital piece of race riding steering equipment and I'm not sure that it's realistic to expect jockeys (of all people) to be counting whip strokes under penalty of losing the race. The manner and placement of whip strikes is, for me, more important than the number.
    The older I get the better I was.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Talbot Green
    Posts
    13,268
    Thanks
    2,133
    Thanked 958 Times in 720 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    I would definitely agree with your last sentence, Archie.

    Flicks when riding a finish are totally different to a jock standing up in his saddle and letting loose a belter.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  16. #16
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    I one hundred percent agree with that Archie, apart from the last sentence. You couldn't have put my own views on it any better. I'd also add to that I would ban three year olds hurdling, and I'd ban horses chasing before they're five, which is a particular problem in France. I also believe that these are rules that should be agreed and adopted worldwide.

    With regards whip bans how will any kind of a ban deter an amateur from delivering the biggest day of his or her life? As tough as it sounds, the only way is to disqualify the horse. I've been an owner (not currently), and I'd accept it for what it is. Cheating. Unless that measure is taken no length of whip ban or fine will ever stop it in valuable races. If it is however, it'll stop immediately and never come back.

    Can you imagine what I'm going to do as an owner if a jockey takes away the biggest day of my life!!!
    Last edited by Maruco; 19th March 2018 at 12:13 PM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    3,657
    Thanks
    742
    Thanked 900 Times in 590 Posts
    Trouble is, Colin, that many armchair punters don't realise that some of the time the whip doesn't make contact with the horse and is just used for percussive effect and rhythm.

    In the earlier piece I forgot to add that I certainly wouldn't empower local stewards to disqualify. Some of the Colonel Blimps that sit can't even count to eight by the end of the afternoon so a reference to a central panel would have to be the vehicle.
    The older I get the better I was.

  18. #18
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    To clarify why I disagree with the last paragraph, it shouldn't be up to the stewards to decide from a distance what constitutes a slap or a smack. Anything that is ambiguous or open to interpretation can't be regarded as a rule, and will simply be another reason for a split opinion in the stewards room.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    North Wales
    Posts
    3,657
    Thanks
    742
    Thanked 900 Times in 590 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Maruco View Post
    To clarify why I disagree with the last paragraph, it shouldn't be up to the stewards to decide from a distance what constitutes a slap or a smack. Anything that is ambiguous or open to interpretation can't be regarded as a rule, and will simply be another reason for a split opinion in the stewards room.
    Unfortunately, that interpretation is already part of the regulations/guidelines.
    The older I get the better I was.

  20. #20
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    Yes exactly Archie. The rules should not be ambiguous.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •