Remember before all-weather racing and racing was off?

[Simon Nott]

What did we do before all-weather racing and weather put paid to turf? Bet on cats trotting, that's what..... http://www.starsportsbet.co.uk/simon...-to-vincennes/

[Desert Orchid]

I was as keen as anyone for AW to be introduced but its advent has been, for me, a totally damp squib.

I wanted AW to offer class racing for good money. As it is it's no better than those horsey games you used to get at the local shows.

As with so many aspects of British racing, only bookmakers benefit from AW racing.

I'd scrub it tomorrow if I had my way. The alternative would be to go down the Honk Kong route and run it as stringently as it is there. Anything in between is fannying around.

[reet hard]

Depends on your perspective, DO.
On a quiet winterTuesday, Newcastle offers 3 decent class 2 races today, all featuring 3 figure horses, which is comparably more than you'd muster for most NH or Flat meetings.
The Good Friday AW championships has proven an inspired iniative which is raising the game and its quality to heights never seen previously.
Long may it obtain, imo.

[Desert Orchid]

I accept that, reet.

On a quiet winter Tuesday, I'm happy to watch some TV, have a wee doze on the couch, catch up on some recordings or even some correspondence. If I was in better health I'd think about going to the golf range (might be closed today as it's a bank holiday up here) but that will come next week when I've shaken off the lurgy.

Meantime, Mrs O has asked me to try and sort out a week away in the sun... So many better things to do that put up with dross.

I agree about the quality of racing on Good Friday but I'm still boycotting that day on religious grounds. I reckon the only way those principles would be sorely tested would be if the Grand National was run then.

[reet hard]

Been thinking about this a lot, DO and, while your view is obviously entrenched, I feel it's fair to point out a few advantages of AW racing, in that others might see the light of day.
Aspirant punters are often advised to 'specialize' and sand racing offers the perfect vehicle for the tyro to sharpen their teeth on, viz:
1) There's a much smaller pool of horses to familiarise oneself with (for ease, let's say 10% of the total population)
2) There's far fewer courses to understand topography and draw factors (again, say 10% for ease)
3) While AW going is subject to change, there's usually much less of a swing than is possible on turf (let's allow 2/3rds less).

If one allows the logic of the above (and the off-the-wall maths) it should quickly become clear that reducing the variables in this manner reduces the odds against finding the winner appreciably.There are other factors which also contribute:

Proper sectional times for 4 of the 6 AW tracks, which you'd be pushed to find anywhere on turf.
Quicker replays, which reduce study time appreciably.
Generally sharper tracks and shorter races naturally reduce the impact of weight as a factor.
The ability to see declarations - and study form - 2 days in advance, for all races.

While I'll concede that many see 'synthetics' as dross, some may take on board the rationale of the foregoing, and have a proper look at what's a bona fide branch of our sport.

[Desert Orchid]

I absolutely accept 100% everything you're saying, Reet, and I'd probably be as 'into' the AW as any AW anorak out there if the quality of Meydan was on offer all the time.

It's not just the AW I have no time for. I have no time for any dross. The most unpalatable aspect of the dross is that on the few occasions I watch it I can identify in any, say, 10-runner field, six or seven non-triers. Same with turf racing, Flat or NH. Once you get below Class 3 races you've the added obstacle of trying to figure out if the bastert you think should win is even trying to win.

The higher up the class bands you go the fewer non-triers you identify but you even get on-triers in the Derby. Didn't one trainer famously back his horse to be last?

None of that, though, has anything to do with why I don't look at the AW on Good Friday. I'm pretty sure in those valuable races they're nearly all trying and the winners are probably 'findable'. If the AW racing was of Meydan quality every day I'd maybe look at it differently but be fair to me: do I really want to start to specialise in it at my age?

[Danny]

Been thinking about this a lot, DO and, while your view is obviously entrenched, I feel it's fair to point out a few advantages of AW racing, in that others might see the light of day.
Aspirant punters are often advised to 'specialize' and sand racing offers the perfect vehicle for the tyro to sharpen their teeth on, viz:
1) There's a much smaller pool of horses to familiarise oneself with (for ease, let's say 10% of the total population)
2) There's far fewer courses to understand topography and draw factors (again, say 10% for ease)
3) While AW going is subject to change, there's usually much less of a swing than is possible on turf (let's allow 2/3rds less).

If one allows the logic of the above (and the off-the-wall maths) it should quickly become clear that reducing the variables in this manner reduces the odds against finding the winner appreciably.There are other factors which also contribute:

Proper sectional times for 4 of the 6 AW tracks, which you'd be pushed to find anywhere on turf.
Quicker replays, which reduce study time appreciably.
Generally sharper tracks and shorter races naturally reduce the impact of weight as a factor.
The ability to see declarations - and study form - 2 days in advance, for all races.

While I'll concede that many see 'synthetics' as dross, some may take on board the rationale of the foregoing, and have a proper look at what's a bona fide branch of our sport.

I'd agree with every point you've made reet. I still couldn't take to it though. I gave it a try for 3 months and the main problem I found was that so many have taken this approach for all the points you've made so many of the Speed raters I've known switched to more or less all weather only for all the reasons you'd suggest. Problem is with a lot of people latching on to it kind of sucks out the value. Hoards of clock watchers waiting to pounce on the overnight markets.

It stands to reason that over time if something is easier to do, easier to understand then more and more people do it until the edge erodes. More and more raters turn away from turf because of on going problems with going descriptions (amongst other things) which as you point out isn't so much of a factor on the All weather. I firmly believe that those who can over come the things that everyone else finds hardest or the most difficult rather than turn to an easier option will be those who do best in the long run.

The other problem with the AW is the low standard of most the racing means its absolutely rife with corruption and is a bandits paradise imo. The same could be said for racing on a whole but I think the higher the class the straighter the race.

[reet hard]

The other problem with the AW is the low standard of most the racing means its absolutely rife with corruption and is a bandits paradise imo. The same could be said for racing on a whole but I think the higher the class the straighter the race.

.Can't agree it's a den of ''corruption and bandits'' Danny, though it's a common enough cry amongst those who follow it briefly.
By nature, class 6 & 7 races will attract more than their share of crocks and has-beens, but, as I indicated earlier, there are plenty of decent races if you look for them, and the 'class pyramid' is essentially no different in structure to different disciplines of the same sport.
It does help, of course, if you start with a 'glass half full' philosophy.

[Grasshopper]

AW is no better/worse than turf Flat racing.

Hopefully we can all agree that they are both equally fu*cking appalling, and about as interesting as Father Austin Purcell reading the entire contents of a Consumer Credit Agreement insert, on an endless-loop until you die.

I’d rather watch the cats trotting.

PS. Reet makes some really good points, as long as inevitable death through eventual boredom is part of your game-plan.

PPS. Seriously, good points by reet.

[reet hard]

Cheers, Grass - join in the discussion anytime you like.

[Grasshopper]

I’ve already given 100% of my contribution, reet.

[Danny]

.Can't agree it's a den of ''corruption and bandits'' Danny, though it's a common enough cry amongst those who follow it briefly.
By nature, class 6 & 7 races will attract more than their share of crocks and has-beens, but, as I indicated earlier, there are plenty of decent races if you look for them, and the 'class pyramid' is essentially no different in structure to different disciplines of the same sport.
It does help, of course, if you start with a 'glass half full' philosophy.

Tbf its probably a bit of pocket talk on my behalf coupled with the fact a few murky characters I've known have been involved with all weather racing.

My memory is shite these days so I can't really remember the names of the horses involved but I can remember the pain of feeling completely mugged off. A few years ago Noel Quinlan landed a double gamble at Lingfield I think it was. Two horses with zero form who were both big double figure odds both well punted and both won with some ease. I was on the second in both races and had two good size win singles and an e/w double which just about covered the losses. I'd spent a lot of time going through the card to come up with the 2 selections to feel fairly confident only to get mugged off by to horses on the job. At the time I wasn't doing too well financially just about keeping my head above water as was the case for most of my life and the money for both horses winning would have been a bit of a game changer.

Amongst other various gamble's I've seen go off and when you hear things like the "Dave Evans phone call" I suppose it taints your view a bit. I dare say though in reality its no worse than the sorts of stunts Henderson pulls week in week out and the likes of JP with his Cheltenham handicap horses but I suppose its a matter that I understand them and that I'm aware of what JP horses are likely to do, where as the All weather due to lack of interest I'm unsure of who's who and what's what.

The murky characters I've known are probably only been involved in All weather racing because its a cheaper to get involved and although murky, they are not big time murky enough to be go and throwing there dough in at a higher level.

So point taken Reet.

[ozgood]

the A/W is perfect for coups... Barneys last coup in jan 2014 had 5 winners .. 4 were on the a/w

[reet hard]

the A/W is perfect for coups... Barneys last coup in jan 2014 had 5 winners .. 4 were on the a/w

Just 3 AW winners - all in class 6 or 7 races.

[ozgood]

Just 3 AW winners - all in class 6 or 7 races.

4 winners on a/w

eye of the tiger
indus valley
low key
callisto light
seven summits.... won at catterick

[reet hard]

Aye; I missed 1, but none of the AW winners above class 6 - which tells its own story.