Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 46

Thread: Is Chamberlin Right?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,931
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts

    Is Chamberlin Right?

    I've copied and pasted the RP site article detailing Ed Chamberlin's views as expressed at the Gimcrack dinner.

    I'm not sure I agree with him but it might be worth discussing:

    ITV Racing's main presenter Ed Chamberlin believes racing needs to learn from other sports and become less reactionary if it is to increase its popularity.

    Chamberlin's message was delivered in a speech at the 247th Gimcrack Dinner at York racecourse on Tuesday night when he told guests that much-maligned racecourse concerts were a way to educate people about racing and that jockeys were vital in helping promote the sport.

    He said he believed there was much ITV could do to move the sport forward, adding: "But to do that we need your help."

    Chamberlin, who returned to racing having been one of Sky's main football presenters, said that in contrast to football the language of racing "intimidates and restricts" and needed "demystifying."

    He added: "Some frown on concerts that are now so popular at race meetings in the summer. To me they offer a perfect opportunity to educate people about our sport, engage them in our sport, and entice them to come racing again."

    Chamberlin said he believed racing "has many advantages over football" but "there is also plenty we can learn from football and other sports."

    "Sports always needs to stay trendy," he went on. "To be vibrant and appeal to the young. Football never stands still. It's always modernising. The latest innovations with the likes of Friday night football and Manchester City launching a restaurant with a one-way glass into the tunnel.

    "In cricket the advent of 20/20 and its ever changing and hugely popular finals day. Plans are afoot to make Test cricket more sexy. A few years ago cricket looked to be dying on its feet but with its innovations, it seems to be on the rise again and set to join horseracing as one of the few sports on terrestrial television.
    "Racing needs to do similar and get on the front foot and be less reactionary."

    Chamberlin also called trainers to not only allow apprentice riders to do media training but to encourage them to do so.
    "So far, we have just scratched the surface with the players, the jockeys, on ITV," he said. "It is crucial in the modern age with so much information so readily available, that we tell viewers something they don’t know. To be different. To give them unique insight. I believe jockeys are in the best place to do this."

    Chamberlin concluded: "These are exciting times – yet I'd love to see racing modernise and engage.It's a wonderful sport – for the many – not the few."

    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 13th December 2017 at 10:46 AM.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    3,722
    Thanks
    414
    Thanked 790 Times in 572 Posts
    but he completely and utterly misses out a key point

    "Some frown on concerts that are now so popular at race meetings in the summer. To me they offer a perfect opportunity to educate people about our sport, engage them in our sport, and entice them to come racing again."

    "Sports always needs to stay trendy," he went on. "To be vibrant and appeal to the young. Football never stands still. It's always modernising. The latest innovations with the likes of Friday night football and Manchester City launching a restaurant with a one-way glass into the tunnel.


    Fair enough, let's open all of the stadium bars two hours ahead of the next West Ham v Spurs game and leave them open throughout the game, allowing the spectators to drink at their seats. Then, after teams have departed, open up the pitch so the crowd can mingle and watch the Madness tribute act late into the night.
    Last edited by wilsonl; 13th December 2017 at 11:10 AM.
    Alcohol, because no good story ever started with "I was eating this salad..."

  3. #3
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,931
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    The first thing I would disagree with is this assertion:

    in contrast to football the language of racing "intimidates and restricts" and needed "demystifying."
    I don't believe this is in contrast to football. A lot of people don't follow football at all and would be as intimidated or mystified by the terminology as in any sport.

    I watch lots of 'minority' sports when they hit the main channels but have little understanding of them. Ice skating, shinty, even Rugby Union (my wife understands this malarkey a lot more than me because she followed it as a teenager). I have no idea about them but it doesn't stop me watching or enjoying them when I choose to do so.

    And that, to an extent, is the rub.

    I choose to watch them. And I choose to watch them when they're on mainstream channels. I wouldn't look through a TV guide for a station showing American Football. (For the record, I have no understanding of that either.)

    What I do rely on is perceptive analysis, and that requires top notch people on the programme. Racing doesn't have that. In my opinion, football seldom has it but it's a sport for which I don't need it as I played at a decent amateur level until my late 20s and I reckon I can analyse a game better than most of the so-called experts with a TV sinecure.

    All the programme needs to do is spark people's interest. It's then up to the people to go and find out more about it for themselves. If they can't be bothered to do that we shouldn't be banging our heads against a brick wall trying to explain the finer points. Engagement with the sport has to be a two-way street.

    There is hardly a news bulletin goes by without some reference to cricket. I don't know the first thing about cricket. I don't want to know the first thing about it and I object to its being on the main TV news bulletins so often. But if I did decide one day to take an interest, I'd go and find out more about it for myself.

    I'm just starting to do that with poker. I've seen it on telly and in films, going back to The Cincinnati Kid. I never got further than 5-card Brag at school but I'm interested in taking it up as my visual issues are restricting my form study. I've organised a toy-money session over the Christmas holidays as a way of 'revising' and learning more but I don't know the rules of, for example, Texas Hold 'Em. But I can go online and read up on it.

    TV only needs to spark the interest. Moving the racing to the main ITV channel (indeed, that is what the presenters call it themselves) would help. Moving it to the BBC would help even more because people are lazy. BBC ratings are higher than elsewhere because it is the default channel on TVs. Many people switch their TV on and don't bother to change channels afterwards.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  4. #4
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dalkey
    Posts
    5,496
    Thanks
    422
    Thanked 840 Times in 477 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    I think it was the mysterious complexity of the racing lexicon that first caught my interest to be honest. Decoding John Rickman and Julien Wilson while landlocked on rainy Saturday afternoons as a teenager tickled my interest enough to randomly pulled John Oaksey's biography of Mill Reef from the sports section of the library and I was hooked. On the sport, not the betting.

    I feel the central thrust of ECs argument is that we need to package racing to attract the people that watch The Only Way is Essex as they are an untapped source of disposable income. He may be right - I just hope not. Mob chanting is already bleeding in at Cheltenham and I could do without it.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

  5. #5
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,931
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by an capall View Post
    I feel the central thrust of ECs argument is that we need to package racing to attract the people that watch The Only Way is Essex as they are an untapped source of disposable income. He may be right - I just hope not. Mob chanting is already bleeding in at Cheltenham and I could do without it.
    Yes. Exactly the type unlikely to want to find out more for themselves. Keep them the fvck away from us.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    992
    Thanks
    647
    Thanked 235 Times in 179 Posts
    I think any sport can create an interest, just as easily as it can lose its casual audience's attention. Most sports will gamble that they won't lose too much of its hard-core support, but they can increase attendances and viewing figures by reaching out (I know, we all hate that soppy phrase) to a wider audience with disposable income ie, younger people. Without creating an interest among younger people, racing risks dying on its ars. I suppose one consequence of inviting a younger audience into the sport is that they will spot that NH racing is quite cruel, and will eventually call for its abolition.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16,018
    Thanks
    1,467
    Thanked 1,553 Times in 1,112 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by an capall View Post
    I think it was the mysterious complexity of the racing lexicon that first caught my interest to be honest.
    I'm much the same, Colm.

    Racing offers an intellectual puzzle that has absolutely no parallel in any other sport. Any comparison with football is therefore invalidated at source. You cannot dumb-down horse-race form into easily-digestible chunks. It takes effort (and time) to understand form, and the myriad inputs that go into weighing-up a horse-race.

    The issue racing has - if indeed it actually has one (I'm not convinced of the argument myself) - is that people are lazy, and instant-gratification is preferred to any sort of graft. Chamberlain's states that there are "vast amounts of information available", as if this does not apply to horse-racing, when the reality is that the information available to punters in weighing-up a race is inordinate - but you have to have the will to apply yourself to assimilate that information, to form a view.

    It sounds very-much to me like EC wants what is best for ITV Racing i.e. more engagement from surly jockeys. Maybe that's no bad thing, but if he thinks this will make the puzzle easier to solve, then he is blowing it out through his rear-end. Each jockey will have a totally different view on any given race; but they can all be boiled-down as follows:

    "My horse has a great chance, and even if it doesn't, I won't say so, because I don't want to wind-up my Owner".

    That being the case, jockeys input is basically useless, and renders Chamberlain's idea useless, in terms of its purported desire to demystify the sport and make life easier for punters.

    Your average-Joe would rather spend 15 minutes sorting-out his 10-line Fixed-Odds coupon, than an hour trying to figure-out the winner of a single Saturday handicap - whatever a jockey might have to say about it. Such is the nature of the world we live in. Racing cannot change this, because it is a much-wider cultural issue.

    PS. I have heard about racing being on the verge of dying on its arse, ever since I started following it in 1991. It's the same train of though that had IBM going bust because of Microsoft and Apple i.e. a load of old cobblers.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 13th December 2017 at 11:46 AM.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Grasshopper For This Useful Post:

    Maxbet (13th December 2017)

  9. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Talbot Green
    Posts
    13,268
    Thanks
    2,133
    Thanked 958 Times in 720 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    It seems to me that regular followers of racing are being taken for granted again. Is there any thought given to how many regular race goers would be driven away by trying to attract a younger following.

    We see this in many instances of a business making offers to new customers without caring whether their present customers walk away or not.

    I remember in the early days of Racing UK they reduced the subscription fees quite substantially, naively, as it turns out, I expected some sort of refund for the early subscribers. When I rang up Jim Ramsey, who was one of the head honchos, and asked about such a refund he laughed. I was not happy and told him I would end my subscription, his reply was Oh no you won’t and if you do, so what!

    He was right I didn’t cancel my subscription but I was one very disgruntled customer.
    Ah! but a man's reach should exceed his grasp......

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Colin Phillips For This Useful Post:

    Maxbet (13th December 2017)

  11. #9
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dalkey
    Posts
    5,496
    Thanks
    422
    Thanked 840 Times in 477 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    i am thinking of franchising a new sport with the right tempo for modern TV audiences. I am torn between chess without pawns and bridge without hearts.

    Any preferences?
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

  12. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    179
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
    I disagree entirely with everything Chamberlin says. I wonder how much he pays to get in any racecourse any time, nevermind just the extortionate charges that proper racing fans are expected to pay for the "pleasure" of having Madness or The Wurzels on, often accompanied by mediocre cards.
    I used to love football in the late 60's and early 70's but detest it now.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Dante For This Useful Post:

    Maxbet (13th December 2017)

  14. #11
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    23,661
    Thanks
    2,931
    Thanked 3,483 Times in 2,743 Posts
    Good stuff, GH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Your average-Joe would rather spend 15 minutes sorting-out his 10-line Fixed-Odds coupon, than an hour trying to figure-out the winner of a single Saturday handicap - whatever a jockey might have to say about it. Such is the nature of the world we live in. Racing cannot change this, because it is a much-wider cultural issue.
    I think your average Joe betting shop punter is as likely to spend only a very short time deciding what to bet in a horse race or, more likely, multiple races as with the football. I suppose they - the bread-and-butter punting fodder for the industry - are what keeps the whole shebang going rather than the likes of the people who populate forums like this one, who are more likely to spend some time trying to maximise their chances of finding either the winner or the best betting angle in the race.
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  15. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    3,722
    Thanks
    414
    Thanked 790 Times in 572 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by an capall View Post
    i am thinking of franchising a new sport with the right tempo for modern TV audiences. I am torn between chess without pawns and bridge without hearts.

    Any preferences?
    I'd go for the chess but combine with a telephone vote to decide next moves.
    Last edited by wilsonl; 13th December 2017 at 12:58 PM.
    Alcohol, because no good story ever started with "I was eating this salad..."

  16. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,272
    Thanks
    628
    Thanked 489 Times in 302 Posts
    Agree very much with the views on here especially An Capall who has probably summarised my exact thoughts on the matter. I grew up amongst hooligans, deadbeats and yobs. By whatever name you want to refer to them just basic degenerates. Racing took me away from that sort of world. I feel sorry for the people who don't get the beauty of it all I really do, I feel sorry for the people who don't understand it the passion and excitement of race day the ones who just don't get "it". To think of "making racing sexy" turns my stomach its one of the few things in life that remains unspoilt from a bygone era of respect and decency. Unfortunately the next generation who are the ones we are supposed to try and attract are generation X-Box, half the cast of Walking dead (the dead half), a generation of retards and I'd include my own daughter amongst them. Spoilt, useless and lazy in the main in they haven't got an App for it then they can't do it. They don't get it, will never get it. You want popular then you look no further than X-factor, Jeremy Kyle, Grand theft auto, Geordie shore, love island and you tube funnies of cats or people just generally being daft Pinapple pen anybody ??...we live in an age where Jedward are millionaires and I'm bloody ashamed that I even know they exist but if that doesn't say it all then nothing does.

    Please don't change our sport to become more mainstream I'd personally rather it die on its arse than become an unrecognizable circus.
    Last edited by Danny; 13th December 2017 at 1:47 PM.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Danny For This Useful Post:

    Colin Phillips (13th December 2017), Maxbet (13th December 2017)

  18. #14
    Senior Member an capall's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dalkey
    Posts
    5,496
    Thanks
    422
    Thanked 840 Times in 477 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    Agree very much with the views on here especially An Capall who has probably summarised my exact thoughts on the matter.
    It's taken the best part of two decades on here to find someone who agreed with me. Worth the wait, thanks Danny.
    "And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.

    And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."

  19. #15
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    I'm not sure there's anything remotely controversial with what Ed Chamberlain has said. Setting aside the big Festivals and key Saturday meetings, if racecourses are to survive they need more people through the gates. The more (diversity) they offer the more likely they'll see bigger crowds. The same is true of non-raceday revenues where racecourses are generally poor at adding to their income.

    On the subject of concerts, generally they are at second and third tier Friday or Saturday fixtures, where the racing is generally pretty average and not usually sold out. Also the concerts are after racing and have no impact on the racing whatsoever.

    With regards media training and access to more of the jockey and trainers I couldn't agree more. How can that possibly be a bad thing. We always hear from the same old crown. Why not hear from others who are perhaps too nervous to do themselves justice in front of a camera.

    His final comment is the one that resonates with me most though. Racing is for the many - not the few. I completely disagree that he's aiming his comments at the 'Only Way Is Essex' set, and that's nothing more than a cheap shot. I don't doubt for one second that Chamberlain's comments are well intentioned. He's a racing man through and through. He's just not a racing snob. I've been involved in the sport in one way or another for the best part of 50 years, and racing snobbery has been part of the problem. Fortunately though racing has been changing over the last decade with new ideas to attract new racegoers. I applaud initiatives that help to attract new people to racing, barring hooligans who can turn up at any event where alcohol is on sale. The truth is though that hooligans don't need music or media trained jockeys to act like idiots. Just alcohol. And guess what, that's always been freely available at racecourses.

    It amazes me that there are still people who believe post racing entertainment ruins the sport. How??? Do they understand basic economics? If they do, they'd understand why it's necessary for many of the smaller course to put on entertainment. Getting more people through the gates is the only way they've been able to survive. What's the alternative? A significant hike in admission prices? Or close the racecourse? And guess what, if that happened the die hards will then blame the racecourse for not doing enough!!!!

  20. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,272
    Thanks
    628
    Thanked 489 Times in 302 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by an capall View Post
    It's taken the best part of two decades on here to find someone who agreed with me. Worth the wait, thanks Danny.
    Hahahahaha, Magic!
    Last edited by Danny; 13th December 2017 at 2:01 PM.
    Man who catch fly with chopstick .... accomplish anything.

  21. #17
    Senior Member G-G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not got much to lose.
    Posts
    3,187
    Thanks
    726
    Thanked 471 Times in 295 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by wilsonl View Post
    but he completely and utterly misses out a key point

    "Some frown on concerts that are now so popular at race meetings in the summer. To me they offer a perfect opportunity to educate people about our sport, engage them in our sport, and entice them to come racing again."

    "Sports always needs to stay trendy," he went on. "To be vibrant and appeal to the young. Football never stands still. It's always modernising. The latest innovations with the likes of Friday night football and Manchester City launching a restaurant with a one-way glass into the tunnel.


    Fair enough, let's open all of the stadium bars two hours ahead of the next West Ham v Spurs game and leave them open throughout the game, allowing the spectators to drink at their seats. Then, after teams have departed, open up the pitch so the crowd can mingle and watch the Madness tribute act late into the night.
    Exactly - most of the people who book tickets for a race meeting when a band are on after racing have no interest whatsoever in the racing, it's cheaper to see George Ezra at Ascot than it is to book the O2 or wherever, a great many do not arrive much before the last race, and a lot that do that do just clutter the racecourse up with their **** head behaviour and don't even watch the racing. One group at a flat meeting in the summer were deafening all around with shouts of 'come on Fraaankiee' until I pointed out he didn't actually have a ride in the race. If they want to have concerts at racecourses, fine, but sell different sets of tickets and have a controlled entrance just for the concert , anything to keep them separate.

  22. #18
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    The Shire
    Posts
    4,749
    Thanks
    262
    Thanked 930 Times in 580 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by G-G View Post
    Exactly - most of the people who book tickets for a race meeting when a band are on after racing have no interest whatsoever in the racing,

    A great many do not arrive much before the last race, and a lot that do that do just clutter the racecourse up with their **** head behaviour and don't even watch the racing.
    You say this based on what? This certainly hasn't been my experience. Granted that is the case with some, but certainly not the majority as you suggest. Wide sweeping comments like this GG are part of the problem. People take them at face value and then jump on the bandwagon.

    As I said in my previous post, would we prefer racecourses to take the initiative or close down? I'd swear that some people think only the Grade 1 tracks exist.

  23. #19
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16,018
    Thanks
    1,467
    Thanked 1,553 Times in 1,112 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    If struggling tracks can manage to survive by putting-on additional events like concerts, then fair enough.........but I don't see many bands rushing to play at places like Hereford or Hexham.

    These events are almost exclusively held at tracks that aren't struggling - they're just a means to boosting already healthy-enough revenue, so I'm not sure your point is valid, Paul.

    And I'm not sure what any of it has to do with the point that Chamberlain was trying to make either.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  24. #20
    Senior Member Simon Nott's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Tiverton, Devon.
    Posts
    844
    Thanks
    24
    Thanked 373 Times in 242 Posts

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •