Simmo, when it came to the IndyRef, I was of the opinion that you had to be Scottish, to really understand the fundamentals of the question of Independence.
In my view, 'economic migrants' (can't think of a better-term, but it's meant in a positive way) living in Scotland, did not possess the necessary historical context, to answer the question being posed. They are/were essentially ignorant of what it means to be Scottish, and the subtleties of 'Scottishness'. The ex-pat Scottish diaspora were far better-placed to answer the question, but were excluded from the vote - despite having the 'local knowledge' needed to properly answer it.
in the case of the current situation in Catalonia, I believe that 'local knowledge' means a lot, and affords a much-broader understanding of context, than is offered-up by news or social media.
How much do you really know about the situation over there? How can you get a 'feel' for how big an issue it is on the streets, and whether the protests you're seeing reflect that mood accurately or not? I think it's hard to get a true-read on things as an outsider, and in that scenario, it's hard to be dogmatic. The contributions from suny and brendanr have been very illuminating, and - for me, at any rate - demonstrate that things are never as black-and-white as they seem.
Beyond your fairly-crude use of the polling numbers as justification, it rather seems that your argument is for independence/separation/self-determination whatever the location, and whatever the cost. If that's genuinely the extent of it, then there isn't really anything anyone can say to convince you otherwise.
PS. suny, tanks on the streets is assuredly not the way to resolve anything. Mediation is the only way forward - though it might take the removal of the clowns leading the Spanish & Catalan parliaments, before it happens.
Last edited by Grasshopper; 6th October 2017 at 9:19 AM.
"Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".
SlimChance, March 2018
Things going to its way
the 2 big banks leaving the future paradise new country
companys running out of the region faster than Batassh in the PRix Abadia
polls of 80% in favour of kings speech
the images of last sunday were most of them false, less than 10 injured people in the hospital
this coup detat will finish on tuesday, after this lunatic declares the independence on monday
he will be jailed very soon
To answer the question - my argument is for self-determination - something which is being denied at present.
In the case of Catalunya, my feeling is that numbers from the illegal referendum would not be sufficient to obtain a majority in the event of a legal one.
But I believe that the opportunity to vote should be given.
PS - agree that Suny and Brendan's posts have been illuminating.
Last edited by simmo; 6th October 2017 at 9:54 AM.
It's nice to see some voices of reason and common sense still exist out there even if it is just a horse racing forum.
As this seems to me to be an Irish centric place of conversation, in honor of Brian O'Nolan's recent birthday I'd offer up the following quote courtesy of Flann O'Brien.
“A wise old owl once lived in a wood, the more he heard the less he said, the less he said the more he heard, let's emulate that wise old bird".
Think that's what I'll do as relates to this particular topic.
Last edited by brendanr; 7th October 2017 at 1:05 PM.
ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!
As we seem to be discussing things revolutionary I thought I should help cheer my good friend (Suny) up a little with an image of the new €1 stamp issued in Ireland yesterday.
"And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.
And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."
His real name is Seamus Guevara Lynch with a strong Irish background. And in case you haven't noticed, we do like a good revolutionary. One man's assassin is another's freedom fighter.
"And still they gazed and still the wonder grew. That one small head could carry all he knew.
And that small head knew that Impaire Et Passe would win the Champion Hurdle."
The French have confirmed that they will not recognise an independent Catalonia, and that the act of secession would see them excluded from the EU.
"Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".
SlimChance, March 2018
It's got nowhere to go in the short/ medium term as a declaration, but to some extent the seed has been further planted by the way the Spanish authorities mishandled the whole thing
Ironically, one of the bigger losers might yet be Scotland, as it throws the Spanish government a bit of a curve ball as regards any further application they might or might not make in the future. How does it play out in Barcelona if the Spanish recognise Scotland but not Catalunya? Nothing to gain and anything to lose. If I were the Spanish government I'd be inclined to veto Scotland for fear of spreading any independent movement, and quite probably ask Italy for their support and bring what pressure I could on Portugal too
Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes
I'm not convinced the Spain-veto-over-EU card would necessarily be played, if Scotland was already a wholly-independent State, but can see that it's a risk.
"Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".
SlimChance, March 2018
Scotland will never be in the EU
spain will not allow it for sure
about Cataluņa
things going well
tomorrow they are declaring the independence
all big comings are now out
and the chief of the coup detat will be in prision very soon
The catalonian script working
they declared an Independent Republic, it was a country that worked very well in their short history (3 hours)
Spanish prime minister applied the constitition and they have lost the autonomy
the former authorities that made the coup detat will be in prision this Friday and will last there more than 20 years
the independentist have made a great work, more than 2000 companies have left the zone (including all the big ones and banks) and they have destroyed the economy there for a generation
First ones going to Hotel The bars
things continue developing as expected
Almost all the principals of the coup detat already in prison since today.
Great to see these clawns Will stay 30 years in jail.
Shocking scenes for democracy in Spain. They should be ashamed.
As I understand it the Constitution of Spain prevents it being broken up. The way for Catalan independence and a referendum therefore is to campaign for the amendment of the Constitution to allow a referendum to take place not to hold a referendum in breach of a ruling from the Supreme Court . What the Catalan Parliament did was in fact anti-democratic and ignored the rule of law .
The Catalonian independence parties took a high risk strategy and have lost big time . Whether the criminal charges are wise or oppressive is another matter altogether. I can see charging them for wasting public money in arranging and paying for an illegal referendum but the other charges appear somewhat over the top.
Last edited by Ardross; 24th March 2018 at 9:21 AM.