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Thread: Independence Votes

  1. #21
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    Sorry Suny but you are talking utter nonsense as it relates to the economy of Catalonia.
    On almost any metric it exceeds the rest of Spain starting in 2012 and since the end of 2013 GDP growth has been stronger than the rest of the EU including the rest of Spain. 2015 numbers were the strongest since 2007..

    Regions like Madrid aport much more to the economy with less returns,
    it is obvious you are not very well informed about the spanish economy

  2. #22
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post

    As for the King's speech I'm surprised he did not mandate an official observation of the Falange on November 20.
    Spain has a population of around 47 million with Catalonia, Valencia community, Basque countries and the Balearics comprising almost 16 million which is a little less that 40%.
    It's a stone cold certainty that nowhere near 90% of the people in these regions alone thought the king was "perfect".
    I dont know what you put Baleares or Valencia in that list
    even cataluña, independentist are not majority,
    it is obvious the owners of the companys and civilised people is not acting in the streets like nazis, that is the job of the anaraquist and their young extrem left delinquents


    the King was perfect
    he said he wanted the law to be done

    when you see someone robbing a bank, or someone kidnapping a baby, what do you have to dialogue with them

  3. #23
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post

    As for the King's speech I'm surprised he did not mandate an official observation of the Falange on November 20.


    The Guardia civil the best police force in Europe. Dear oh dear.

    Calling decent working people, men women and children anarchist rubbish is a sad indictment of the times we live in.
    I dont know what has the king in common with Falange
    your ex catalain boyfriend did tell some bizarre things

    about Guardia Civil, it is obvious you dont know nothing abut Spain

    about Civil working people what is on the streeets or trying to go an ilegal pseudoreferedum........
    the people fighting the police in the streets are delinquents
    and it is obvious they are not going to work tomorrow, in fact they made an ilegal strike not to allow the people to go to work yesterday

  4. #24
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post

    Did you know that the national football team has never played a match in Camp Nou.
    Did you also know that the infrastructure budget for Catalonia in 2015 was the lowest since these records have been kept (1997). Which regions benefited most. Andalucia, Castille and Leon and Galicia.
    Cataloniia's GDP is almost 4/5 of those 3 regions

    Why would you downplay Rajoy's corruption scandals on the one side but make a big deal about a regional government's similar scandals.
    The party that is keeping Rajoy afloat Ciudadanos, ironically originating in Catalonia, made a big deal before the election about never supporting PP if Rajoy stayed (due to the scandals) and then caved when it was clear they might get a shot at governing.

    Until recently I always thought I would die in Spain. The Spanish people I have met (admittedly most of those in Catalonia) are optimistic, progressive and for the most part proud citizens.
    Rajoy has done a **** poor job as the head of the country and Puigdemont has also his burden to carry for fueling the flames of nationalist fervor.
    But to allow the national police to club men and women and spray rubber bullets into crowds for wanting to cast a ballot goes far beyond my understanding of democratic principles.

    It's the 60's all over again. What's next? Tanks on the Diagonal.





    About the infrasctuture
    It is obvious you dont know nothing
    Do you know they have AVE (high speed train) for years and years
    Do you remember a city not being the capital which has hosted and olimpics (Barcelona 92)
    About the Nou Camp, of course they dont play there, the atmosphere this nazis have created dont allow it
    They have special treatment in the spanish paliment and have much more memeber with the same level of votes tan in any other place of spain


    And they are so stupid they are not allowing to speak in spanish to the kids in the public schools


    Rajoys party corruptions scandal are on courts and they have paid a lot for them.
    Sadly the other parties are even worse
    Socialist affairs are much bigger in quantitie and quality
    Podemos are being paid by IRan and Venezuela and what they are doing in places liek Madrid and BVarcelona has to be seen to be believed
    And nationalist makes level of coruption difficult to believe


    Democratic princicles is what we have here , I know some people is so naive that thinks pólice should treat with roses and teddybears with deliquents, but sadly thats not the case.


    and Rajoy has been a disaapoitningmet but is doing a much better job tan the inept precvoous one (zapatero who was president thanks to a terrosit and attac) and the alternatives we have, especially with Podemos.
    When you say progressive, I dont if take as an insult, tell me
    60s….. yes some people still believes in John Lenon, as I see
    Tanks in the diagonal?
    In if it is necessary YES, and the catalán goverment in jail of course

  5. #25
    Senior Member Grey's Avatar
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    If that happens, sunny, it might be the whole of Spain and not just Catalunya which will be out of the EU. Physical force should never be the solution to a political problem.
    Last edited by Grey; 5th October 2017 at 1:38 PM.

  6. #26
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    If that happens, sunny, it might be the whole of Spain and not just Catalunya which will be out of the EU. Physical force should never be the solution to a political problem.
    If it happens what?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post
    If that happens, sunny, it might be the whole of Spain and not just Catalunya which will be out of the EU. Physical force should never be the solution to a political problem.
    The EU wouldn't dare eject Spain. Apart from anything else, they'd fall out of stability mechanism allowing them to renege on their debt and leaving the ECB and German banks and taxpayers in particular under the target 2 mechanism to pick up the pieces.

    Look at the lengths Turkey has had to go to before the EU finally suspended any future application. The EU will look the other way, or at the very most, suspend Spain should they start shooting civilians dead, but they won't throw them out of the Euro for fear of where the current liabilities are

    If Catalunya has allowed support from the EU to enter their thinking, then they've badly miscalculated

    The EU already has problems with Poland and Hungary, not to mention Brexit, they aren't about to start showing Spain the door. Rajoy can pretty well do what he wants, and quite probably will
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    Regions like Madrid aport much more to the economy with less returns,
    it is obvious you are not very well informed about the spanish economy
    I realize English is not your first language but is also obvious that you simply are not capable of clear thought here.
    You made the ridiculous assertion that I quote "Catalonia is a former rich part of the country in clear downgrade thanks to the extreme left politic of recent times and the corruption of the former president Puyol"
    I put up growth numbers to refute that. Your response is just gibberish
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    even cataluña, independentist are not majority, They are now thanks to the hapless antics of Rajoy
    it is obvious the owners of the companys and civilised people is not acting in the streets like nazis, that is the job of the anaraquist and their young extrem left delinquents
    Sadly it is the reactionary attitudes such as yourself brings to the table that is part of the root cause of this breakdown.



    the King was perfect
    he said he wanted the law to be done if that's the case why not just gun down anybody with the intention of voting

    when you see someone robbing a bank, or someone kidnapping a baby, what do you have to dialogue with them Ah yes the dirty word dialogue, cant have that here.
    Last edited by brendanr; 5th October 2017 at 4:22 PM.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunybay View Post
    About the infrasctuture
    It is obvious you dont know nothing
    Do you know they have AVE (high speed train) for years and years
    Do you remember a city not being the capital which has hosted and olimpics (Barcelona 92)
    About the Nou Camp, of course they dont play there, the atmosphere this nazis have created dont allow it
    They have special treatment in the spanish paliment and have much more memeber with the same level of votes tan in any other place of spain


    And they are so stupid they are not allowing to speak in spanish to the kids in the public schools


    Rajoys party corruptions scandal are on courts and they have paid a lot for them.
    Sadly the other parties are even worse
    Socialist affairs are much bigger in quantitie and quality
    Podemos are being paid by IRan and Venezuela and what they are doing in places liek Madrid and BVarcelona has to be seen to be believed
    And nationalist makes level of coruption difficult to believe


    Democratic princicles is what we have here , I know some people is so naive that thinks pólice should treat with roses and teddybears with deliquents, but sadly thats not the case.


    and Rajoy has been a disaapoitningmet but is doing a much better job tan the inept precvoous one (zapatero who was president thanks to a terrosit and attac) and the alternatives we have, especially with Podemos.
    When you say progressive, I dont if take as an insult, tell me
    60s….. yes some people still believes in John Lenon, as I see
    Tanks in the diagonal?
    In if it is necessary YES, and the catalán goverment in jail of course
    Words fail me here but rest assured I know a lot more about what goes on in Spain then you think. I don't speak only to Catalans but to others as well and there are enough of them appalled by this situation.
    Big fan of John Lennon and not afraid to admit I guess that makes me a commie lover.
    When you were still navigating the straits between your daddy's balls I was out in the world risking getting my ass shot off, for the land of the free and the home of the brave, in a far away land where reactionaries like yourself saw the communist bogeyman behind everybody reading Mao's red bible. All those people protesting that war wound up on the right side of history. Those that got 50000 or more killed for **** all not so much.
    What can I say we live in the age of Trump where nativism and revanchism is the flavor of the times. Very sad.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    The EU wouldn't dare eject Spain. Apart from anything else, they'd fall out of stability mechanism allowing them to renege on their debt and leaving the ECB and German banks and taxpayers in particular under the target 2 mechanism to pick up the pieces.

    Look at the lengths Turkey has had to go to before the EU finally suspended any future application. The EU will look the other way, or at the very most, suspend Spain should they start shooting civilians dead, but they won't throw them out of the Euro for fear of where the current liabilities are

    If Catalunya has allowed support from the EU to enter their thinking, then they've badly miscalculated

    The EU already has problems with Poland and Hungary, not to mention Brexit, they aren't about to start showing Spain the door. Rajoy can pretty well do what he wants, and quite probably will
    Agree with the part of the Catalonian miscalculation if that is indeed the case but would be really worried if Franco's descendants wound up shooting people dead in the streets and the EU looked the other way because of potential forfeitures of Spanish debt. But again in the age of Trump I guess anything is possible.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  12. #32
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    When I was young, dumb and full of come ready to kick ass at the drop of a hat my favorite slogan was better dead than red. Didn't get me very far but I did not die either.
    I take a more nuanced view of these things now but would not hesitate to pick up a weapon and use it if my life or that of my loved ones was threatened.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    Agree with the part of the Catalonian miscalculation if that is indeed the case but would be really worried if Franco's descendants wound up shooting people dead in the streets and the EU looked the other way because of potential forfeitures of Spanish debt. But again in the age of Trump I guess anything is possible.
    The nearest parallel is Northern Ireland, and there was never any suggestion that the EEC was ever going to eject the UK for the occasional extra judicial killing. A lot of it will depend on how any shootings occur in the fog of conflict, claim and counter claim.

    Jean Claude Druncker might permit himself a case of Cava in solidarity at best, but I doubt even he's going to be crass enough to say there was trouble makers on both sides and some fine people in amongst the Falange

    There is some provision I believe in the International Charter of Human Rights that has a commitment to the freedom of self determination. The EU is signatory but I doubt its strong enough as Spain would probably be able to argue that the Catalans already have this through democratic structures and devolved powers

    The EU might send Spain a strongly worded memorandum, but that'll be about it.

    It's probably worth remembering that Spain isn't the only member state with separatist movements humming away too, albeit the Spanish case is more organised than the others. There won't be much support for Catalunya within the European Council
    Last edited by Warbler; 5th October 2017 at 5:58 PM.
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  14. #34
    Senior Member simmo's Avatar
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    Another thought is the number of parts of Spain which have a significant independence movement - half the country seems to not want to be part of the whole.

    I was slightly amused to see the following graffiti on my last visit to the Canary Islands.

    Las Canarias es no Espana.

    followed by

    Ta Puta Madre.

    I'm guessing that the second person disagreed.
    Last edited by simmo; 5th October 2017 at 6:26 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post

    Jean Claude Druncker might permit himself a case of Cava in solidarity at best, but I doubt even he's going to be crass enough to say there was trouble makers on both sides and some fine people in amongst the Falange

    That is funny

    There is some provision I believe in the International Charter of Human Rights that has a commitment to the freedom of self determination. The EU is signatory but I doubt its strong enough as Spain would probably be able to argue that the Catalans already have this through democratic structures and devolved powers.

    There is a provision within the UN charter on self determination, also within Woodrow Wilson's 14 points where he spoke specifically to this issue, which I believe was used as a template for the UN charter. I do agree with you about the Spanish central government using the argument you state, which in all truth would not be far fetched
    On another tangent I saw by chance that your friend Katie Hopkins made an impassioned plea for the Catalan cause in the Daily Fail a few days ago. Took me a good minute to come down from hyperventilating.
    Last edited by brendanr; 5th October 2017 at 6:38 PM.
    ROLL ON THE RESISTANCE !!!

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    On another tangent I saw by chance that your friend Katie Hopkins made an impassioned plea for the Catalan cause in the Daily Fail a few days ago. Took me a good minute to come down from hyperventilating.
    I can only assume she sees it as a vehicle for breaking up the EU, possibly for the reasons I've speculated about, as there would be an issue of debt to resolve, which could go up the chain
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  17. #37
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    Words fail me here but rest assured I know a lot more about what goes on in Spain then you think. I don't speak only to Catalans but to others as well and there are enough of them appalled by this situation.
    Big fan of John Lennon and not afraid to admit I guess that makes me a commie lover.
    When you were still navigating the straits between your daddy's balls I was out in the world risking getting my ass shot off, for the land of the free and the home of the brave, in a far away land where reactionaries like yourself saw the communist bogeyman behind everybody reading Mao's red bible. All those people protesting that war wound up on the right side of history. Those that got 50000 or more killed for **** all not so much.
    What can I say we live in the age of Trump where nativism and revanchism is the flavor of the times. Very sad.
    so you speaks catalan
    and you like John Lennon, I would like to know if you like him as a singer or as politician?
    and finally Trump enters in the equation

    I understand your position in this affair

  18. #38
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmo View Post
    Another thought is the number of parts of Spain which have a significant independence movement - half the country seems to not want to be part of the whole.

    I was slightly amused to see the following graffiti on my last visit to the Canary Islands.

    Las Canarias es no Espana.

    followed by

    Ta Puta Madre.

    I'm guessing that the second person disagreed.

    you does it again

  19. #39
    Senior Member sunybay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendanr View Post
    Agree with the part of the Catalonian miscalculation if that is indeed the case but would be really worried if Franco's descendants wound up shooting people dead in the streets and the EU looked the other way because of potential forfeitures of Spanish debt. But again in the age of Trump I guess anything is possible.
    Can you tell who are the Franco descendents?

  20. #40
    Senior Member Grey's Avatar
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    Warbler, I find it impossible to imagine similar scenes in Edinburgh if the Scottish nationalist organised another referendum without London's say so.

    People in Europe mightn't like what their governments are doing in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and elsewhere in far and distant lands but at the same time it all seems abstract. But when it comes to a place like Barcelona, which most of us have already visited, the public reaction is going to be different. Juncker and his colleagues cannot fail to pick up on that, they will have the same gut reaction themselves if Sunny's wet dream of tanks on the Diagonal comes to pass. I hope they are already doing what they can to make sure it doesn't happen.
    Last edited by Grey; 5th October 2017 at 9:36 PM.

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