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Thread: 2018 Gold Cuppin'

  1. #961
    Senior Member G-G's Avatar
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    Brennan looked pretty desolate down the horse walk, down which CC received a tremendous reception. Didn't do a lot wrong really. Fabulous run by the old man of the field.

  2. #962
    Senior Member TheBear's Avatar
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    I get the impression that has been Waiting Pariently’s primary target all season. Big pot, likely soft ground and ideal trip. Anything else from here will be a bonus. I can see him struggling to make up the ground from out the back in a Ryanair with UDS as the hare on good to soft.

    Top Notch i’d give another chance. Can’t remember who said Coney Island had been found out but that’s just nonsense. We know how good he is from his novice chase season. He just got taken off his feet today as I predicted he would. Another year and 3 miles should see him as a big player at grade 1 level. The trainer is no fool.


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  3. #963
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    OK, I still want to look at the race again but here are the results of a quick time comparison exercise with the two earlier chases over 3m, the Reynoldstown won by Black Corton and the £100k handicap won by Regal Encore:

    For the two earlier races I timed them from jumping the first fence of the race to the last in the home straight. The camera angle switched preventing me from taking a time at the winning post on the first circuit.


    Black Corton - 164sec
    Tenor Nivernais - 157sec

    I can't do decimal points on-screen so there is a margin of error but 7 seconds is at least 26 lengths. So Tenor Nivernais was all of that in front of Black Corton at that point. The chances are he was going too fast and BC was getting a soft lead.

    From the last fence on the first circuit to the winning post:

    Black Corton - 208sec
    Regal Encore* - 209sec

    So Black Corton pulled back nearly four lengths overall through that stage but Regal Encore beat him by six seconds overall.

    Comparing these two races with the big race, timing it from the first fence in the shorter race to the last in the home straight:

    Black Corton - 117 sec
    Tenor Nivernais - 113 sec
    Leader in Betfair - 108 sec

    Those are very big margins.

    From the last fence on the first circuit to the winning post:

    Black Corton - 208sec
    Regal Encore* - 209sec
    Leader in Betfair - 208sec


    From six out to the line:

    Black Corton - 86 sec
    Regal Encore* - 89 sec
    Cue Card - 89.5s
    Waiting Patiently - 88 sec

    * this is the time taken for the leader at these stages. Black Corton was in front, RE & WP came from a little further back.

    I'll hopefully get the time during the week to check out Regal Encore and WP individually. But clearly Cue Card was in reverse gear from five out.

    I've edited the above times after checking.

    It looks like the times are confirming what the naked eye saw, namely that Frost got a breather into BC from 8 out to six out and really got the horse running from three out, covering that last section in 54s. Regal Encore took a little under 55s and Waiting Patiently took 57s, so Waiting Patiently was slowing down more than the winners of the other two races both run over 3f further.

    The pace was clearly over-fast in WP's race and he has benefited from a hold-up ride.

    I don't know how to calculate mark-ups and I suspect all the big race finishers will be worth mark-ups of varying amounts. Black Corton was maybe given the most efficient ride and if he is the guide to the times then Waiting Patiently probably comes at 157 before his mark-up, but I'll take a closer look again during the week once I've got my favoured hard copy of the form to hand.
    Last edited by Desert Orchid; 17th February 2018 at 9:53 PM.
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  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Desert Orchid For This Useful Post:

    Danny (17th February 2018), edgt (17th February 2018)

  5. #964
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euronymous View Post
    Clearly not his running. East to forgive him with Cheltenham in mind.
    Yes.
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  6. #965
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    For all that I thought it was an impressive outing from WP today, I remarked to a mate straight after the race, that I wasn’t entirely certain that the result would have a major impact on the Ryanair, which looks a really trappy affair this year.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  7. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBear View Post
    I get the impression that has been Waiting Pariently’s primary target all season. Big pot, likely soft ground and ideal trip. Anything else from here will be a bonus. I can see him struggling to make up the ground from out the back in a Ryanair with UDS as the hare on good to soft.

    Top Notch i’d give another chance. Can’t remember who said Coney Island had been found out but that’s just nonsense. We know how good he is from his novice chase season. He just got taken off his feet today as I predicted he would. Another year and 3 miles should see him as a big player at grade 1 level. The trainer is no fool.


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    Twas me who said Coney Island had been found out. Far from being nonsense ..being 12/1 for this year's gold cup was nonsense. Horse gets exposed to a proper gallop yup took off his feet and the other thing it does is put pressure on jumping and his jumping has fell apart. I'm the biggest Top Notch fan there is but someone said that's the worst he's jumped ...thats not coincidence. When a horse is took out of its comfort zone that's when it's most likely to make mistakes.

    Found out !
    Last edited by Danny; 17th February 2018 at 8:35 PM.
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  8. #967
    Senior Member TheBear's Avatar
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    I agree his price for this years Gold Cup was way too short but he was always going to be vulnerable at 2 and a half miles to the speed merchants. I still have him marked as a horse with massive potential and certainly wouldn’t be using today as a reason to write him off.


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  9. #968
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    Yeah and I suppose I'm only so harsh on his efforts today as I like to take on any hype horses and a 12/1 gold cup quote on the back of a 3 runner graduation chase was exactly that. Not the horses fault mind and was certainly worth a shot today to find out whether he could cut it. Maybe your right and he needs another season or just a different type of test to what he faced today.

    Still gutted about Top Notch myself trying to make some sort of excuse for him but not coming up with much in truth.
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  10. #969
    Senior Member Euronymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post

    Still gutted about Top Notch myself trying to make some sort of excuse for him but not coming up with much in truth.
    It appeared to me that Jacob wasn't as chill about letting the pace setters get on with it as Hughes. He wanted to be closer and the horse just didn't jump as well as he normally does and that's his chief attribute, his economy over fences. This was missing today but I'm confident he'll get it back.

  11. #970
    Senior Member Double Handful's Avatar
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    Reagrding Waiting Patiently and his chances in the Ryanair based on the likely ground at the festival. His 2 wins prior to yesterday were both on G/S ground. If it's proper good ground at the festival, then perhaps it's a question he needs to answer, but I don't believe it means he can't win.

    He's never run at Cheltenham before, and how he handles the track may be a bigger question to answer.

    One thing that is Indisputable imo, is that he is clearly the best horse from yesterdays field.

    I also think it's 50/50 if the ground at festival will be good or G/S.

    It's no surprise to me that he is now a general 3/1 joint fav with UDS for the Ryanair and I'll certainly be keeping the Faith with WP come the festival.

  12. #971
    Senior Member TheBear's Avatar
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    I appreciate this is entirely a different set of circumstances but I’m stung by backing Empire Of Dirt in last years Ryanair. He was dropped out the back and never made the ground up. Having backed WP yesterday I was watching him closely and became concerned early on that his jumping was being put under pressure. The pace eventually slackened slightly probably due to the ground and he was classy enough to close the gap.

    I’d just be concerned UDS is not going to give him that opportunity and yet I’ve long held the belief UDS is a vulnerable favourite. WP should be the one I was looking for but now find myself finding reasons why he won’t win. All very confusing!


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  13. #972
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Handful View Post
    One thing that is Indisputable imo, is that he is clearly the best horse from yesterdays field.
    It's not indisputable. Cue Card is arguably the best horse from yesterday's field.
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  14. #973
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    I didn’t see a single thing wrong with WP’s jumping myself, TheBear. He is low and fast and doesn’t leave much margin for error, but he jumped them absolutely fine yesterday, on my viewing (and he was the only horse in the race I was watching).
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  15. #974
    Senior Member Double Handful's Avatar
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    Empire of dirt was in the wrong race! Clearly should have been in the GC, as is often the case with Gigi horses, because they have so many.

    I know EOD won over 2m4 previous season in a H'Cap, but that's a different story. And R2R won same H'Cap over 2m4 but he rightly being aimed at golf cup this year.

    I always feared for EOD last year in getting caught out for pace, I do not hold the same fears for WP, who has pace in abundance imo and also possesses that gear change or turn of foot needed to go past horses towards the end of his races.

  16. #975
    Senior Member Double Handful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    It's not indisputable. Cue Card is arguably the best horse from yesterday's field.
    Not over 2m4 . That was proven yesterday

  17. #976
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    It's not indisputable. Cue Card is arguably the best horse from yesterday's field.
    Things are rarely indisputable, DO, but it is not really arguable that Cue Card was the best horse in the race yesterday. Only your narrow interpretation of how the race played-out attempts to suggest it....and yet he was still beaten readily. Your theory holds no water, imo.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 18th February 2018 at 11:44 AM.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

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  18. #977
    Senior Member Desert Orchid's Avatar
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    So we should take all results at face value?
    Illegitimi non carborundum


  19. #978
    Super Moderator Diamond Geezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Handful View Post

    He's never run at Cheltenham before, and how he handles the track may be a bigger question to answer.
    Twelve out of thirteen winners of the Ryanair so far had previously won at Cheltenham

  20. #979
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Orchid View Post
    So we should take all results at face value?
    That's a different question. We're talking about a single, specific result here.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

    SlimChance, March 2018

  21. #980
    Senior Member TheBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    I didn’t see a single thing wrong with WP’s jumping myself, TheBear. He is low and fast and doesn’t leave much margin for error, but he jumped them absolutely fine yesterday, on my viewing (and he was the only horse in the race I was watching).
    I’ve watched it again. It’s the early fences where he jumps them a bit big that concerned me, but yes he soon gets into a nice rhythm. I’m being influenced by a previous bad experience which shouldn’t really be a factor, although I am genuinely concerned about the ground. Until now they’ve campaigned this horse specifically to avoid either ends of the season but their hand is forced now.


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