Hinkley, HS2, Third Runway

[Maruco]

Ok I've answered my own question. We have the highest retail energy cost in Europe at 14.8p per kWh prior to taxes.

I preume you you must have been looking at something referring to wholesale rates, or retail rates post taxation.

[clivex]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25200808

[clivex]

Retail residential

That's it really. I don't follow this stuff much bit whichever administration brought this in should be congratulated for delivering choice and cheapest prices in europe. Public ownership does of course fail the consumer and serves itself

As for rail I use swt trains extensively all week long. Frankly service never been better. Certainly far more so than 10 and especially 20 years ago. Delays for anything other than jumpers or non travk issues are pretty rare

[Warbler]

Its a myth Clive, and its also worth remembering that the BBC will often write a lazy piece based on a government press release (spin in any other language)

Thanks the lord then for the Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...urope-why.html

It's really difficult to introduce a scheme that seeks a 30% reduction in consumption and ask the retailers to front it. What incentive do they have to reduce their own sales? Their reaction is typically three fold

1: You have to compensate us for the lost revenue
2: Yes we can do it, but its going to involve all these additional costs (quite a lot of which are questionable)
3: Yes we can do it, but we'll put the prices up one way or the other (basically Green dealers in this scenario would get some shelter, but none signatories wouldn't)

The industry structure is very similar to America's broadband, which is expensive

I think we really needed a more adversorial relationship between Ofgem and the big six to be honest

The real great loss to the country though was the small picture view and reduction in horizon and ambition that Cameron brought in. To be honest, Gordon Brown was about the best PM we had in this area, as he at least saw that ELC (renewables to a lesser extent) was an industry capable generating massive export earnings and supporting good quality jobs in R&D and manufacturing. Cameron switched the focus to domestic fuel bills and the protection of landscapes, and along with Osbortne wouldn't face down the big six

[clivex]

Total crap you and mau are way adrift in your facts. End of story and no avalanche of side issues will change that

I defy anyone to look at that bbc piece and claim it's "spin"

Fair enough if a poster has got it wrong but don't drag it out

Also it's been reported from years that we have some of the cheapest energy in europe. It's not a subject that interests me much but if self appointed experts cannot pick up on that basic fact the it's big black marker through the rest of their posting

[Warbler]

Unfortunately DECC cant grasp even the most basic concepts. They are utterly useless.

They are little more of a client for the Treasury though. I think when you trace the inertia back up stream, this is where a lot of the stymming seems to resolve to

[archie]

I defy anyone to look at that bbc piece and claim it's "spin"

It's not spin but it is dated 2013.

[Warbler]

Total crap you and mau are way adrift in your facts. End of story and no avalanche of side issues will change that

I defy anyone to look at that bbc piece and claim it's "spin"

Don't need to look too far Clive.

I link the press release below that the BBC based their little piece on and clearly cite in it, (its an Austro/ Hungarian collusion). You'll notice that the data and even some of the PDF's are identical, albeit the BBC makes no attempt to hide their use of them. So where did the reports authors get their UK data from? The answer to that is contained on the last page..... Ofgem (exclusively) ... honestly .... only fecking Ofgem ..... no attempt made to multi source ..... In other words, they've relied on the organisation with the single biggest vested interest in reporting the lowest price to inform their research. They don't even use Eurostat which is the standard cross comparator. They could have gone further. They could have used consumer research surveys (end user reporting), could have set up their own interogations of price comparison sites and built their own index, they could have used the DECC, that could have delved into the many pieces of academic university research or published trade association research, but no ... they used bloody Ofgem!!! and further more, they had no cross-tabs to challenge it.

Low and behold, Ofgem reported that they are doing a great job in keeping the price down - well who'd ever have thought that hey?

http://www.energypriceindex.com/wp-c...ember-2013.pdf

[Grasshopper]

PV is the way forward Grassy. I spent five years in Australia setting up and building the largest PV business over there. The economics work. Australia has a critical mass with consumer PV but still has work to do in the commercial space. Turnbull (and Abbott before him), has been taking Australia on a very similar path to the UK. The difference being that the momentum already exists and the market continues to grow, whereas the Comservatives pulled the plug before we achieved it, and it's gone into full stall. Any number of jobs have been lost as a consequence.

In the commercial space the Aussie Government is also a bit backwards like the UK Government. All they need to do is get feed in tariffs and tax incentives right. Germany has done it, and the U.S. are doing a pretty good job. Much of South America is catching up fast, and India is on the right road. We however are operating more like a third world economy with regards PV. In fact we are a laughing stock around the world pretty much everywhere, because as usual we think we're right and pretty much all of the rest of the world is wrong.

The second best opportunity is energy efficiency and the associated energy savings. Again the Conservatives have totally mucked it up. Green Deal was a joke, and it hasn't been satisfactorily replaced more than two years on.

Hinckley Point was regarded as the only play with regards energy security, which is total bollox. When complete its likely to cost upwards of £25 billion, and in 60 years we'll still have no idea how to clean it up. EDF themselves have said they can't afford to build it which means if it goes through it's likely to cost more again. And however many billions it ultimately costs it's got to be paid for, and just what all that will mean for energy bill hikes god only knows.

I assume PV means photo-voltaic i.e. Solar?

In which case, I can see it being wholly viable in Australia, but not much fu*cking cop in Scotland!

[clivex]

It's not spin but it is dated 2013.

I would happily wager that little has changed

[Warbler]

It actually works on Cadmium Telluride, which means it can work in Scotland (just not as well!!!). It always amuses me slightly when you used to get the sales people ringing up telling you that their PV panels don't require sunlight to work!!! That is kind of what PV is, as in the photo bit means light. Scotland does of course have a lot of daylight in the summer months

[Grasshopper]

Scotland does of course have a lot of daylight in the summer months

I can assure you that this strictly theoretical.

[Warbler]

Well in that case, throw your lot in with wind turbines, you get the additional benefit of pi$$ing Donald Trump off, albeit if he becomes President I'd hang fire on that aspiration if I were you.

[Warbler]

Here's another potential breakthrough for solar, Grasshopper.

Honestly, throwing in with tidal, (or most fluvio hydro) is like backing Beef or Salmon to win a Gold Cup

http://phys.org/news/2016-07-breakth...es-carbon.html

[clivex]

Don't need to look too far Clive.

I link the press release below that the BBC based their little piece on and clearly cite in it, (its an Austro/ Hungarian collusion). You'll notice that the data and even some of the PDF's are identical, albeit the BBC makes no attempt to hide their use of them. So where did the reports authors get their UK data from? The answer to that is contained on the last page..... Ofgem (exclusively) ... honestly .... only fecking Ofgem ..... no attempt made to multi source ..... In other words, they've relied on the organisation with the single biggest vested interest in reporting the lowest price to inform their research. They don't even use Eurostat which is the standard cross comparator. They could have gone further. They could have used consumer research surveys (end user reporting), could have set up their own interogations of price comparison sites and built their own index, they could have used the DECC, that could have delved into the many pieces of academic university research or published trade association research, but no ... they used bloody Ofgem!!! and further more, they had no cross-tabs to challenge it.

Low and behold, Ofgem reported that they are doing a great job in keeping the price down - well who'd ever have thought that hey?

http://www.energypriceindex.com/wp-c...ember-2013.pdf

same old pattern isn't it

whenever you have trotted out some myth from the echo chamber that gets taken apart by stats or polls then Suddenly the stats are myths, the polls are made up and the BBC is being controlled by Cameron Rothschild lizards or whatever

i think it's stands to reason that if often were sitting there making this stuff up it wouldn't exactly be difficult for someone somewhere to expose that and run it as a story. I also think that people at ofgen might quite like to hold onto their jobs too


doesnt wash. Not with anyone

[Warbler]

Oh dear

Well, at least you seem to have recognised that you're reproducing laundered data from Ofgem, and that they might just possess a motive (as you seem to be acknowledging) "to hold onto their jobs" which could cast a question mark over their objectivity, and especially since there's no shortage of contradictory data too. Ofgem are about as neutral as General Melchit holding an enquiry into the shooting of Speckled Jim

Basically Energie Controlie Austria and MEKH VaasaETT produce some survey that relies exclusively on Ofgem's response (they don't even attempt to cross check the veracity of the data. If they had, there'd be other sources cited (you can see it yourself - its on page 11 of the press release). Ofgem get a heads up of the results and their press office contacts a sympathetic journalist(s) (note the chronology on the dates). Journalist(s) agree to run an article which launders the data for a second time and removes any trace of Ofgem as the originating source. Instead its now attributed to the Rubic Cube Think Tank instead and goes out under auspices of the much more respected BBC. The BBC are in effect acting as Ofgem's messenger, concealing their involvement, and in doing so are probably lending the data considerably more gravitas by cloaking it with their own brand which is of course associated with trust. I said it was spin and you said you'd defy anyone etc

All you've done then at the end of the day is show us some Ofgem data that concludes that Ofgem are doing a good job - well done! I
congratulate you

[Maruco]

Fact. At 14.8p kWh our basic cost of retail energy before tax etc is the most expensive in Europe.

The difference is taxation rates and standing charges.

[Drone]

Does anyone know if construction of Hinkley and HS2 has begun yet viz navvies, spades and JCBs?

Both have passed through parliament and been given Royal Assent, which is presumably why, as far as I'm aware, they haven't been mentioned during the election campaign

Both, in my opinion, are at best schemes of dubious value which will haemorrhage public money at a time when the country is cash-strapped; so as much of this campaign has focussed on the need for increased funding for those areas of unequivocally inestimable value - Health, Education and Security, shouldn't some serious thought be given to scrapping these enormous infrastructure projects and diverting the multi-billions saved to where it is actually badly needed

Tough decisions in tough times

[AliGupter]

Not yet as far as I'm aware.

I believe they're still trying to decide which farms to destroy and people's homes to flatten for HS2, at least...

[Maruco]

Whilst I agree with regards Hinckley and the money would be better back in the budget in combination with reigniting renewables, I'm a supporter of HS2. Despite the criticisms I believe it's an essentially infrastructure project. Britain's motorways are absolutely screwed and I can't imagine what they'll be like in 10 years time. Plus HS2 will give access to jobs in the south without the need to move to areas with extortionate mortgages and rents.