View Poll Results: Brexit, Stay or Leave.

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Thread: Brexit

  1. #1661
    Senior Member simmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clivex View Post
    Payments to political parties from unions as well then

    as for orgreave, perfect proof positive that soclialism is dead. To be filed alongside paganism and flat earthers

    fatcher fatcher fatcher. Miners miners miners. It's permenantly 1985

    talk about living in the past. If there is nothing current to seize upon just fcking give up. Draw a line. It's dead. Inert . It's Venezuela

    left field? How about a question about the corn laws or the unresolved issues from the battle of hastings
    I wouldn't be averse to stopping payments from unions if payments from companies were stopped (although that would no doubt lead to US style payments coming from individuals within companies - you know how those Tories are with fiddling finances.)

    On your other points - blah blah blah, you sound like a jumping copy of Steely Dan - utter pish over and over and over.

  2. #1662
    Senior Member Hamm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmo View Post
    I would regard any payments made by organisations to political parties, with said political parties later passing policy which is financially advantageous to those organisations as being, at minimum, morally corrupt, even if not legally.
    You have got this the wrong way round - the payments are not corrupt, it is the actions taken by a political party influenced by these donations that are corrupt.

  3. #1663
    Senior Member simmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamm View Post
    You have got this the wrong way round - the payments are not corrupt, it is the actions taken by a political party influenced by these donations that are corrupt.
    They are both corrupt.

  4. #1664
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    Corbyn and his supporters are right to point out smiths background. In fairness. I can buy that

    it highlights the clear choice between someone who has worked for a business that has saved millions of lives with its research and production and someone who has worked with terrorists and holocaust deniers

  5. #1665
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    The dreadful carnage in France and Germany over the last month, and the resultant outrage by politicians and citizens alike in both countries, prompts a couple of questions in me.

    Firstly, should free movement of people (and absorption of refugees) across the EU, now be considered a de-facto security-risk, and should this 'defining principle' of the EU, be indefinitely suspended and replaced by a checks-based/visa system?

    And secondly, if a checks-based system was to be adopted, would this be so fundamental a change in EU policy, as to render the Referendum result, if not invalid, then perhaps open to question?
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 26th July 2016 at 9:31 PM.
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  6. #1666
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    Isn't the assumption in all that, that the carnage is mainly the result of open borders; and isn't the real problem mostly instigated and orchestrated via the internet, which has no hard and fast boundaries?

  7. #1667
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    I'm loathed to use Brietbart as a source, but according to them, Juncker has already rejected the possibility of tightening up border controls on our behalf

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...orders-always/

    (I say according to them advisedly, as they supply the context rather than a complete quote)

    Basically, the people of Europe are not going to agree to be target practise indefinitely. The Scandanavians and Dutch have started their own citizens patrols (still miles away from being an armed militia at this stage, albeit guns are quite easy to acquire in Finland). In the wake of Nice one of the lesser reported actions that I think it was the French Interior Minister announced? was an appeal to "patriots" to present themselves to recuitment centres and volunteer for the national reserve (the first sign of low key citizen engagement and state training in civil defence). Tonight the state governor of Bavaria is sounding a clarion of sorts too

    Mr Seehofer said that Germany must "do whatever is necessary to protect our citizens".
    He said: "What we have here is an entirely new dimension of terrorism, the Islamist-minded terrorism, and we have to have intense discussions on this challenge in Bavaria and in Germany as well as prevent and repress it.
    "That is the big challenge we face, and therefore any attempts to contextualise the problem are inappropriate.
    "Every attack, every act of terrorism is one too many. Islamic terrorism has arrived in Germany and the people are rightly expecting us to stand up to this courageously."

    Basically the people of Europe are going to start pushing back against their governments before much longer, and they in turn are going to start pushing back against the Commission, perhaps reminding Juncker who really holds the democratic mandate

    Specifically though, a vast majority of the attacks to date (both the deadly ones and the mass sexual assaults) have seemingly come from people of North African extraction (rather than the much maligned Syrians), and even then, its tended to be domiciled European citizens rather than new arrivals. Is there any evidence that border controls would prevent these?

    Would rebordering constitute grounds to invalidate the EU referendum result? Well if things have become so bad that Juncker is forced into giving up free open borders, then there would seem next to no prospect of winning a second referendum under what I could only imagine would be significantly degraded conditions. I could possibly see however that with changed circumstances, and with Article 50 presumably being a work in progress, we might be able to hit the pause button to see what happens

    There are other potential blockages along the road too. What if the fascists win in Austria in November? (a distinct possibility now). Will the EU invoke article 7? Then there's the French elections in May 2017. Hollande is a dead duck waddling. Marienne Le Pen has about 30% of the vote at the moment and looks set to win the first round. Conventional wisdom is that she'll lose the second round, but if these attacks become a daily occurance would you be confident that the French will have had enough by then?

    UK remain voters might actually find themselves rooting for the FN now as the departure of France from the EU will pretty well signal a major overhaul, or its death. Well with so many well paid jobs and vested interests at stake there is no way the Eurocrats will accept abolition, so they'll definitely agree to reform negotiations, in which case the UK could come back to the table and legitimately suggest that there has been a substantive material change
    Last edited by Warbler; 27th July 2016 at 8:54 AM.
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  8. #1668
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reet hard View Post
    Isn't the assumption in all that, that the carnage is mainly the result of open borders; and isn't the real problem mostly instigated and orchestrated via the internet, which has no hard and fast boundaries?
    It's more about the mindset of continental Europeans, reet.

    It doesn't really matter if open-borders is a contributory factor or not. If the perception is that they are part of the problem, then it may lead to demands for tightening of controls by citizens and/or politicians.....and as Warbler suggests, there would likely be very little that JC Juncker could do to prevent it, if it was the 'will of the people'.

    It might only need one country to revoke Schengen temporarily on the grounds of national security, for several others to fall into line, and it becomes self-fulfilling.
    Last edited by Grasshopper; 27th July 2016 at 1:55 AM.
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  9. #1669
    Senior Member simmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Firstly, should free movement of people (and absorption of refugees) across the EU, now be considered a de-facto security-risk, and should this 'defining principle' of the EU, be indefinitely suspended and replaced by a checks-based/visa system?
    No, it shouldn't. Approx 245,000,000 people move around Europe every year. And foreign nationals moving within the EU don't have free movement. This is Daily Mail stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    And secondly, if a checks-based system was to be adopted, would this be so fundamental a change in EU policy, as to render the Referendum result, if not invalid, then perhaps open to question?
    This is wishful thinking on your part.

  10. #1670
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmo View Post
    No, it shouldn't. Approx 245,000,000 people move around Europe every year. And foreign nationals moving within the EU don't have free movement. This is Daily Mail stuff.



    This is wishful thinking on your part.
    You don't appear to have accounted for the context, Simo i.e. the demands which might be made in France and Germany, for a tightening of the rules. This is not Daily Mail stuff from me; it's more about Le Figaro or Die Welt stuff from them.

    As to the second part, you're right, but then I knew that already. I'm more interested in what others think about it, should part 1 come to pass.
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

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  11. #1671
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    Schengen has been suspended before. The French did it to the Italians when the Italians were just waving north african immigrants through

    The only (recent) terrorist attack I can think of that involved crossing European borders however was that committed by Belgians in Paris. I recall reading somewhere else (I think it was during the national ID card debate) that only 3% of terrorists are ever caught at border checks. Pragmatically speaking, the economic gains associated with free movement probably do outweigh the security gains, but there is also an issue of real world politics. A drip feed of these stories (and they seem to be happening every 2 or 3 days now) is going to build pressure, and the likes of Juncker won't be able to abate these indefinitely

    If the UK is able to satisfy itself that immigration was an influence in the referendum result (and the post research suggests it was the second biggest factor) and if Europe begins a process of addressing this, then I suspect they could be present a case for changed circumstances. I doubt however that the two timetables will collide. The EU might be many things, but one thing that no one has ever accussed it of is alacrity. I'd guess that the UK will have left by the time the EU faces up to what's developing
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  12. #1672
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    What was the 'first' biggest factor?

  13. #1673
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    "Decisions about he UK should be taken in the UK"

    Specifically though immigration and borders was surveyed as a separate expressed preference allowing those who've been brackted as xenonphobes/ racists to identify with that option. It was clearly a factor (a big one) but not the biggest

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/
    Last edited by Warbler; 27th July 2016 at 12:18 PM.
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  14. #1674
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    The bit I don't get about the immigration argument, and its apparent influence over the Referendum result, is that immigration from the EU is significantly lower than immigration from the Commonwealth (particularly the Indian sub-continent) and elsewhere. Not only are the numbers smaller from the EU, none of these other countries offer the reciprocal benefits of free access that the EU does, so you would think it was the 'least bad' form of immigration?

    If immigration was really such an issue, surely - one would think - the 'other' type of immigration would have warranted more discussion - yet it was rarely, if ever, mentioned.

    Perhaps this was because it wasn't relevant to the EU dialogue? Perhaps its influence has been massively over-stated? Or perhaps the 'other' kind of immigrants are next in the cross-hairs?
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

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  15. #1675
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    I suspect its much easier politically to attack a bureaucracy that allows 'white' immigration than it is one from the commonwealth, which also has the additional hazard of extending the attack to families with voting rights
    Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly. _ Harry Limes

  16. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    The bit I don't get about the immigration argument, and its apparent influence over the Referendum result, is that immigration from the EU is significantly lower than immigration from the Commonwealth (particularly the Indian sub-continent) and elsewhere. Not only are the numbers smaller from the EU, none of these other countries offer the reciprocal benefits of free access that the EU does, so you would think it was the 'least bad' form of immigration?

    If immigration was really such an issue, surely - one would think - the 'other' type of immigration would have warranted more discussion - yet it was rarely, if ever, mentioned.

    Perhaps this was because it wasn't relevant to the EU dialogue? Perhaps its influence has been massively over-stated? Or perhaps the 'other' kind of immigrants are next in the cross-hairs?
    because we have to accept any pikey or tit from Europe but can pick and choose from elsewhere

    say we need a brain surgeon and the choice is between

    a. A Romanian with Parkinson's and a drink problem

    b. A Nobel prize winner from india

    which are we compelled to take ?

    im not overly fussed about immigration although I can fully appreciate misgivings in certain areas and have previously highlighted one in my experience. Also this might not be seen as fair or right, i would wager that most Brits would certainly feel a lot easier working alongside someone from India or Trinidad , let alone Australia, than Slovakia. They probably wouldn't know or really care if they were immigrants or not.
    Last edited by clivex; 27th July 2016 at 4:56 PM.

  17. #1677
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    The question in that survey was "regain control over borders"

    that's very different from anti immigration.

    Ask that question across every state in Western Europe and I wonder what answer you would get?

  18. #1678
    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Not sure I agree that it's quite that cut-and-dried, Clivex, but I get your point.

    On a slightly different note, it is claimed that non-EU immigration is more managed, but is that really the case? Logic would dictate that the immigration numbers in a free-for-all (the EU model), would be higher than those in a controlled scenario (the non-EU model) - yet the opposite is true. It's completely counter-intuitive.

    Surely the effectiveness of any controls which are being applied, is open to question, if the statistics are to be believed?
    "Beat the price and lose. It's what we do".

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  19. #1679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasshopper View Post
    Not sure I agree that it's quite that cut-and-dried, Clivex, but I get your point.

    On a slightly different note, it is claimed that non-EU immigration is more managed, but is that really the case? Logic would dictate that the immigration numbers in a free-for-all (the EU model), would be higher than those in a controlled scenario (the non-EU model) - yet the opposite is true. It's completely counter-intuitive.

    Surely the effectiveness of any controls which are being applied, is open to question, if the statistics are to be believed?
    because if it was a free for all for the rest of the world you wouldn't be able to fcking move here would you?

    dunno and I'm bored by this

    owen smith is a pillock

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    Whilst I never want to sound like a MURDOCH PRESS! Media bias obsessive I have had to laugh at the BBC business pages since Brexit. Especially the markets

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business

    catastrophy! The ftse is DOWN.

    Seven fcking points. Just off an annual high

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