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Thread: Breeding and Bloodstock Sales

  1. #81
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    I'm not sure if what Frankel has achieved with his first runners is unprecedented as I don't know what Blandford and Bahram and their like achieved in their early days. But I'd be surprised if any new sire has made such a dramatic entrance as Frankel has done. The strange thing is that he's getting chestnuts and greys quite often which one might not have expected as the Northern Dancer bay gene usually seems pretty dominant. What is to like is that whatever colour they come in they seem to have that assertive Frankel running style.
    Even if he only achieves a 1/3 of the strike rate that he's currently recording that his produce will be the 'must-haves' at the sales this autumn and in the years to come. One feature of the printed list of his 2yo offspring is that AOB is only once recorded as a trainer of a Frankel 2yo. I wonder how Coolmore are feeling about that at the moment? One of their issues is going to be that many of their mares are by Sadler's Wells and his sons Galileo and Montjeu, but especially Galileo. I'd be highly surprised if they were to send Galileo mares to Frankel though they might try the odd Sadler's Wells mare I suppose: but 2 X 3 inbreeding to Sadler's Wells may not work. So an interesting conundrum for Coolmore.
    I think a certain Mr Tesio had as one of his principles not to continually send mares to the same sire. Now we have an example of why not: that being if that sire has a great son you can't use him.
    Last edited by Eleanora Duse; 13th June 2016 at 10:14 AM.

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    Colin Phillips (13th June 2016)

  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleanora Duse View Post
    The strange thing is that he's getting chestnuts and greys quite often which one might not have expected as the Northern Dancer bay gene usually seems pretty dominant.
    Bay/brown is always a dominant gene. Chestnut is always recessive. Grey, a different gene altogether, is always dominant.

    Why should it be "strange" that a non-truebreeding bay can sire chestnuts?

    Frankel, just like Northern Dancer, passes on the bay/brown and chestnut gene in 50/50 proportions. He could have inherited his bay/brown colour from either of his parents, both of whom are non-truebreeding bay/browns.

    As for the colour grey, Frankel passes on non-grey 100% of the time. Whether or not any of his offspring are grey is solely determined by whether the grey mares he covers pass on the grey gene. With homozygous grey being very rare in throughbreds, 50% of the grey mares he covers will produce grey foals. So, again, not strange at all.

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    Eleanora Duse (13th June 2016)

  5. #83
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    All you say is correct but all these Danzig sires we've got these days seem to produce a very high percentage of bright bays. I suppose I was expecting, naively, more of the same from Frankel.

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    Any of you remember a Chilean/ Argentenian (South American in any event) in late 1980s had a first crop 18 winners from 20 runners in his home country, got relocated to USA after that but i lost track of him then . He probably bombed but just asking anyone ?

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    £1,300,000 for Jet Setting at sales this evening by China Racing Club.
    Not bad for a Cork maiden winner on heavy ground !

  8. #86
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    Coolmore own plenty of Frankels - a quick scan down that list of two year olds gives you well into double figures from their mares....I can't imagine they're too worried
    You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

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    Coolmore have 3, possibly 4, Frankel 2yos in training. The rest were sold, either in utero (e.g. Cunco) or as as yearlings (e.g. Eminent). They also put 10 first time mares in foal to SH time and sold them privately to Don Alberto Corporation, the resulting 2yos are now in Australia.

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    Colin Phillips (14th June 2016)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleanora Duse View Post
    All you say is correct but all these Danzig sires we've got these days seem to produce a very high percentage of bright bays. I suppose I was expecting, naively, more of the same from Frankel.
    Frankel isn't from the Danzig sire line though, although he has Danehill as a damsire.

    Danzig and Danehill were both true-breeding bays so only ever sired bay foals, apart from the occasional grey out of a grey mare. Hence why the greater incidence of bays from that line. Sadler's Wells was also a true-breeding bay but, as Venusian has already stated, Galileo carries chestnut from Urban Sea (who, as a chestnut herself could only have passed on chestnut) so will pass on his chestnut gene 50% of the time.

    Kind was bay but (as she has had a chestnut foal) must have received a chestnut gene from her dam Rainbow Lake, who herself was bay by a bay stallion out of a chestnut mare. So Frankel has received one bay and one chestnut gene - which one from which parent, we don't know - so, like his sire, will pass on chestnut 50% of the time. If the genetics dice had rolled slightly differently, he might have received a chestnut gene from both and been the next Big Red!

    Technically grey isn't a colour but a modifier - something that happens to a colour. Hence why all grey foals were originally born bay, chestnut, black etc.

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    Eleanora Duse (14th June 2016)

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    Sorry I shouldn't have used the word strange. And I know Frankel isn't from the Danzig line. I was purely making the point that with so many sons, grandsons and great grandsons of Danzig at stud we have loads of bays these days. I happen to like chestnuts. Instead of strange I should have said pleased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleanora Duse View Post
    I happen to like chestnuts.
    Me too.

    With so many Sadler's Wells line stallions dominating the jumping scene, I find it a tad boring to see a 20 runner novice hurdle or bumper with at least 19 of them bay or brown.

    But all is not lost! Apart from the much vaunted Australia, two of the very best sires in the world are chestnut, Written Tycoon and the grey Tapit, who is chesnut under his grey coat. And of course, Dubawi, Galileo and Frankel can all sire chesnuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
    Me too.

    With so many Sadler's Wells line stallions dominating the jumping scene, I find it a tad boring to see a 20 runner novice hurdle or bumper with at least 19 of them bay or brown.

    But all is not lost! Apart from the much vaunted Australia, two of the very best sires in the world are chestnut, Written Tycoon and the grey Tapit, who is chesnut under his grey coat. And of course, Dubawi, Galileo and Frankel can all sire chesnuts.
    When my OH and I go racing, we'll often comment to each other "you must only be allowed to run in this race if you're bay".

  17. #92
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    Here's a question for pedigree nerds: Who was the last Ribot line horse to win a race at Royal Ascot before Jennies Jewel's win yesterday? It must have been a fair time ago.

  18. #93
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    Got Zimbalon in 1975. There has got to have been one since.

    Mr Fluorocarbon 1982. Must be more recent than that!

    Muhttaram 1995?
    Last edited by Eleanora Duse; 15th June 2016 at 4:26 PM.

  19. #94
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    I gave up

  20. #95
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    Well done anyway. Yes, Muhtarram looks the most likely candidate.

    Fifty years ago, who would have thought Ribot's male line would be almost extinct by now?
    Last edited by Venusian; 16th June 2016 at 10:04 AM.

  21. #96
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    Never Bend may be next. Very dependent upon a couple of underrated sires in Europe. Not sure about the US.

  22. #97
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    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

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    Cruella (23rd November 2016)

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    Lots at Tattersall's Sale at Cheltenham Racecourse Fri Dec 9th

    http://www.tattersalls.ie/index.php/...t-lots-results

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    Some people say he’s the best since Arkle and that’s certainly true when you look at what he’s done

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    Cheers Granger.

    One for those who are far more experienced in this sort of thing than me but at what age/term would it be safe to transport a mare?

    Looking into something for the future but for obvious reasons don't want to be racking up unnecessary bills but equally certainly don't want to be endangering the life of a mare or unborn foal.

    Thanks,

    Martin
    Hurricane Fly - whatever he runs in he wins

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