How Many Times ..

[Muttley]

Yesterday evening I felt like taking Barry Geraghty's whip off him and giving him a dose of it himself. He hit Prince of Tara 12 times between the second last and the winning post and every one of them was a right belter ...

:angry: :angry: :angry:

[Merlin the Magician]

Anne I think you'll find the Irish stewards are a lot more tolerant than those over here regards use of the whip........................ :o

[Muttley]

Yes, indeed, Merlin but it still made my blood boil!!!

[Merlin the Magician]

Actually I missed it but can well imagine your feeling of frustration in cases like this Anne.......................

[Galileo]

I too think the Irish stewards can be too easy on the jocks here, a mid ground between both extremes (your situation and our situation) would be ideal.......easier said than done though!

[CP]

Incredible he didn't get a holiday for that. Tore strips off the winner to get him up.......no doubt as he had an interest in the outcome.

[Colin Phillips]

Chop their fecking arms off, vicious, uncaring little bastards.

Colin

[Diminuendo]

:lol: Barry needs his arms to fly, he's good at that!

[krizon]

Doesn't Ireland have an equivalent to the RSPCA? If so, why isn't it monitoring these thrash-fests better and lobbying the Irish Turf Club (or whatever it's called over there??) for more humane treatment of racehorses? I find the spectacle of Irish jockeys letting loose with their whips pretty unedifying, to be honest, especially those who are some eight or more horses way back, and are STILL whaling away in the interest of looking busy. Absolutely unnecessary and revolting.

However, it's interesting to note that we never hear of any Irish people protesting about 'animals' rights' or standing around with placards denouncing animal cruelty.

I'm told again and again that 'the Irish have a much more pragmatic approach to animals' - by which they mean they used to hang (and maybe still do) their dogs to put them down, and the worst offenders in the UK for leaving ponies tethered, sick, and abandoned are the Irish 'travellers'.

I expect a volley of counter-argument in that the UK has no better record on cruelty towards animals, some of it neglectful, some of it ignorant, some of it wilful. All of which is true, though countering one argument with another doesn't get round to addressing the unpleasant activities at issue. However, we have made a little headway on the issue of beating-up our horses in public, by imposing bans. A few knock-out fines wouldn't go amiss, either, with the money donated to the retired racehorse charities.

[Shadow Leader]

I'm surprised no-one has commented on the way AP was beating the hell out of Vodka Bleu in the nervous chase won by Ollie Magern at Stratford on Sunday....even when the horse was plainly not going to win, he continued to peel the flesh from him.....

[Colin Phillips]

SL

I have given up criticising AP, every winning ride is a wonderful ride if you listen to pundits on TV.
The rides such as the ones on Vodka Bleu are referred to as a typical McCoy vigorous/strong ride. As far as the sycophantic pundits are concerned the man can do no wrong, and if one such as Lydia does dare make a derogatory remark what would the great man say........"How many winners has she ridden?"

Colin

[Gareth Flynn]

However, it's interesting to note that we never hear of any Irish people protesting about 'animals' rights' or standing around with placards denouncing animal cruelty.

Why would you expect to, being in the UK? I've seen plenty of anti-vivisection demonstrations etc. (graphic placards and all) in Dublin city centre over the years.

they used to hang (and maybe still do) their dogs to put them down

Have I stumbled into an episode of Brasseye or something?

Doesn't Ireland have an equivalent to the RSPCA? If so, why isn't it monitoring these thrash-fests better

http://www.ispca.ie/

[Diminuendo]

Could be a case of ' what's the point ? ' SL. When I first read of AP's suspension, my first reaction was, great, I hope it's for whip abuse. I couldn't believe it when I read on. He has a terrific habit of hitting the horse straight down and not towards the rear. I thought this was an area ' out of bounds' to the whip?

[Shadow Leader]

Yeah, I know you're right Colin, Diminuendo.....but his ride on Vodka Bleu stood out to me as particularly "forceful".....the horse plainly had nothing more to give & he gave it no time to respond, which is, after all what the jocks are supposed to do....

[Diminuendo]

Watch AP venture into the parade ring, and don't forget to watch him leave......same expression. He's an android :blink:

[LUKE]

Vodka Bleu is definitely a horse that keeps a little bit for himself.These animals are mostly well looked after and pampered -a few cracks of the whip is preferable to ending up on a continental dinner table.

[Muttley]

On the other hand, a different attitude gets some (note the word "some") running sweeter in the first place.

[LUKE]

Obviously the One Cool Cats of this world wont do anything for the whip.

[Ian Davies]

Originally posted by Colin Phillips@Sep 14 2004, 12:03 PM
Chop their fecking arms off, vicious, uncaring little bastards.

Colin
It would certainly teach them not to do it again. :lol:

[Derek.Burgess]

Luke,
Bollocks.

[an capall]

Krizon sums it up rightly. We are a nasty bunch of dog hanging belligerent leprechauns.

We are much nicer to Iraqi and Afghani civilians however, but hopefully we will fall in line there soon.

[LUKE]

Which post was bollocks Derek.

[Grey]

Someone at Roscommon got it wrong. They were supposed to put up hanging baskets, not hanging bassetts.

[Derek.Burgess]

Luke,
Sept 14th 0821hrs

[krizon]

AC: tell me it hasn't been true and still isn't true, and I will loan you a drink. But don't take the word of the old enemy on this, of course. I took the word of an Irish vet's daughter( with whom I discussed many issues, including animal welfare in her fair land) who was thoroughly sickened by some of the practices of rural Oirland. As I fairly evenhandedly said, the UK is far, far from perfect in the arena of cruelty to animals. In the case of the over-use of the whip being cruel (which it undeniably is), your Irish boyos don't seem perturbed and neither do your racing authorities.

Why must you ALWAYS try to politicize non-political discussions and veer off at entirely irrelevant tangents? We all know you've never got over Cromwell, for Chrissake, and can't wait to introduce some reference over your country's suffering at the hands of the dastardly English swine, but calling these ancient calamities down upon the heads of British forumites, interested in not seeing horses swiped viciously, hardly enhances the discussion. In fact, it makes you seem, in my very personal opinion, slightly unhinged. (Okay, for that, read 'raving, English-hating Irish loon'.)

[LUKE]

Krizon -are you Ruth Dudley Edwards.

[krizon]

Yes. And you are?

[PDJ]

I'm Spartacus.

[tetley]

I'm Spartacus

[trudij]

and an echo.......

[LUKE]

I'm Young Spartacus.

[tetley]

Not an echo trudij, if you remember the film they all stood up and said they were Spartacus.

[LUKE]

Getting back to the point -I can't see how anyone can object to a well fed,well housed ,well trained horse who probably gets better medical treatment then the average human in the world today getting a few cracks of the whip at the end of a race.

[tetley]

Luke the point is no matter what the subject you will find someone who has another view.

Thats why forums like this will always be popular.

[trudij]

I'm too young for the film !! :cry:

[Love Everlasting]

I thought this thread was goin to be about the freak

Luke, you've probably never seen what a horse whose had a good beating during a race is like afterwards. i've said before one of mine had a real thrashing during a race in order to finish 3rd..... for weeks after he was really down on himself, he was never the same horse until it got the the point where whenever he did go to the races he would be such a mule going to the start and lining up that he was finally given up on.

[LUKE]

At last years Breeders Cup meeting I thought High Chapparal got a great ride and wouldn't have shared first place without plenty of use of the whip.Was the ride completely justified -you better believe it.

[LUKE]

Cool Ground won a Gold Cup due to the brilliance of Adrian Maguire and his use of the whip.

[dilysb]

Ruth Dudley Edwards! A wonderful writer who exposes the foulness of politicians (all parties) without mercy.

As for me, I don't want to be Spartacus but have always quite fancied being either Bess of Hardwicke (v. rich, v. powerful) or, even better, Queen Victoria (again, v. rich, v. powerful, but also loads of dogs, horses and cattle). I know Queen Anne also had loads of horses and was a keen punter but she was rather short-lived and had quite a troublesome life. Anybody else whom forumites would like to be?

[LUKE]

Ruth Dudley Edwards -someone who met her at Oxford described her to me as a headbanger.In her writings on Northern Ireland loyalists are always described as hardworking shopkeepers and small landowners who are misunderstood by the world and fear the media.Republicans are unwashed,unemployed psychos who manipulate the media and are addicted to violence.

[Diminuendo]

Luke, I don't think the argument is about ' a few cracks at the end of a race'..... that is allowed, but being whip happy and just whipping the horse without time to respond is another matter.

[Derek.Burgess]

Luke,
COOL GROUND won a Gold Cup and was never the same horse again.

The whip is supposed to be used as an aid to keep the horse from taking off at a tangent and to encourage it to make full use of it's abilities,although i reckon that if a Jockey cannot get his mount round the course without beating the **** out of it should be looking for more suitable employment.

[Shadow Leader]

Originally posted by dilysb@Sep 15 2004, 08:10 PM
Ruth Dudley Edwards! A wonderful writer who exposes the foulness of politicians (all parties) without mercy.

As for me, I don't want to be Spartacus but have always quite fancied being either Bess of Hardwicke (v. rich, v. powerful) or, even better, Queen Victoria (again, v. rich, v. powerful, but also loads of dogs, horses and cattle). I know Queen Anne also had loads of horses and was a keen punter but she was rather short-lived and had quite a troublesome life. Anybody else whom forumites would like to be?
Elizabeth I - she had balls of steel.

[dilysb]

Luke, I'm a Catholic myself, still find Ruth D-E hilarious.

[Ardross]

RDE's family are Catholics aren't they ? Owen Dudley Edwards the famous historian .

[DanMcD]

Bloody hell Krizon, you struck me as quite a rational sort of person. Have you completely lost the run of yourself!!!!

You talked to the daughter of an Irish vet. And on that grounds, you have now analsysed the pysche of a nation's attitude towards animals.

You're not a reader of the Daily Mail, by any chance?

[Melendez]

COOL GROUND won a Gold Cup and was never the same horse again.

Cool Ground won a Gold Cup and was never the same horse before.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Krizon,

Tut Tut.

[an capall]

I once rode the daughter of an Irish vet. She was both cruel and an animal, Dan, so don't be too hard on Auntie K.

[LUKE]

Melendez-loved the comment about Cool Ground never being the same horse before the Gold Cup.Classic.
Derek-surely the point is that a hard ride won Cool Ground a race he wasn't entitled to win.Anyone who remembers that race will have no doubts about why he won it.

[krizon]

Dan - I gave the Irish vet's daughter the benefit of knowing what she was talking about, and if she was lying, it's her calumny, not mine. The point being that I hear, especially in racing circles, that the racing Irish aren't quite as delicate as we English are about the use of the whip (which WAS the original topic, of course). If you personally think it's okay to batter a horse around a racecourse, then I'm surprised at YOU.

You may also be utterly shocked to see that any time suny bay ventures an opinion on certain subjects, references to cruelty to bovines are inevitably dredged up, as if that explains the Spanish psyche. Just as soon as any criticism of Irishness is made or implied, An Capall can be relied upon to pull Ollie Cromwell or other British beastliness out of the hat like a magic rabbit, to imply that we English (the owd enemy) were and still are so appalling, that we have no right to a voice on others. So, we're ALL lovely, wonderful, super peoples, all over the world, blameless in all we do, and spotless in behaviour. Does that suit you, sir?

However, the discussion of peripheral unpleasantness does distract (and I am guilty, m'lud, of having distracted myself) from the topic issue. Either you think walloping away at a horse through its' race is at the least unkind, or you think it's acceptable. It can't be a bit okay, any more than a woman can be a bit pregnant. It's that simple an argument, but it seems few people will actually show their hand on it. You haven't an eye for politics anon, have you, Daniel? <_<

[Garney]

Krizon, I dont want to get into any slagging match but the fact that the Irish punch well above their weight in many aspects of horse racing, breeding, training, riding, etc hardly comes from a disrepect to the horses. Many claim that the pre-eminent position of Irish in many racing circles stems from their greater understanding and affinity with the horse. Jockeys cross the line in all countries, and should be punished but calling Irish horse races "thrashfests" is wildly extreme.

Many jockeys are classed as good as they get horses up on the line, through strict use of the "persuader". Lester, McCoy, Maguire were and are all strong in a finish. It is seen as a boon. It is part of jockeyship, with end justifying the means in some cases for owners of the horses.

[an capall]

Krizon, a debate on use of the whip in degrees becomes 'battered around the course' - a cheap debating point unworthy of you. It reminds me of the scorched earth policy employed by Mounjoy and Carew in Munster during the Nine Years War, 1594-1603.

[DanMcD]

I haven't got the time to reply in full as I have a few dogs to hang, so all I can do is summarise.

Of course I don't want to see horses being whipped excessively - who does?

Hey, maybe the Irish authorities are a little bit lax on enforcing things but this is probably more of a ruling issue than a national pysche.

If the English authorities started relaxing a bit as well, then maybe those very gentle delicate English jocks would start getting a bit trigger happy as well. It' just the boundaries that are different.

My point, and my ire is, I don't take generalisations of a country's attitude towards animals based on a second hand account from a daughter of an Irish vet to be word of gospel. As An C rightly points out, some of those are beasts as it is.

More than anything, your comments were superfluous to the course of the original discussion!

[Ardross]

Aunty K if I remember rightly has rather a deal of Irish ancestry herself

[an capall]

Yes but the tendency to hang dogs has been cross bred out of her. She is now content with long dropping interlopers to The Siver Ring.

[Galileo]

While I dont think K (for once) has put her arguement very well, I think there may well be a grain of truth in her threads. Sometimes I really do feel uncomfortable seeing some of the rides our jockeys get away with over here....

[LUKE]

Heres one for the tree huggers out there.Yesterday Spencer really got stuck into Oratario to get him home by a short head in a Group 1 event.Amazingly he attracted vitriol on the betfair forum for hitting the horse 12 times with a slashing action.I won a 4 figure sum as a result of that race and couldn't believe the horse won-he seemed to make up so much ground in the last few yards.
Anyway I say the ride was justified from the point of view of connections,punters and the horse himself -who is now guaranteed a stallions job in 12 months time.

[Muttley]

Would love to put the case for the tree-huggers :huh: but didn't see the race so I can't ... :D (Well, for goodness sake, it's that flat racing stuff ...)