Breeding Terminology

[archie]

Can someone explain in simple terms a statement that described Golan as a 'virtual outcross for Northern Dancer line mares'?

[Venusian]

Golan does have Northern Dancer in his pedigree, but 5 generations back - his dam, Highland Gift, is by Generous, by Caerleon, by Nijinsky, by Northern Dancer.

Therefore, any foal sired by Golan would only have Northern Dancer in his 6th generation, which is fairly remote. Put another way, ND has provided Golan with only 1/32, or around 3%, of his genes.

So you could say that Golan is a "virtual outcross" for mares with ND in their pedigrees.

[Irish Stamp]

Yep, couldn't have put it better Venusian

[krizon]

Erm, except what does 'outcross' actually MEAN?

[Shadow Leader]

An 'outcross' is introducing new blood from another line.....I'm not very good at explaining things like this, but suffice to say I know exaclty what I mean I just can't put it into words!!! Basically, if you have a mare who is bred along, say Northern Dancer lines....you don't want to put her to another stallion from the Northern Dancer line as all sorts of problems can originate from what is pretty much inbreeding. So, then the breeder looks for an 'outcross', which is a stallion with a bloodline that is not in the Northern Dancer line. There you go...clear as mud now!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

[krizon]

Ah, you mean the sort of thing the House of Windsor should've done long ago, right? :D

[Songsheet]

Yes but it's very interesting that line breeding is now becoming more commonplace in the t/bred world, mainly because of the saturation of NORTHERN DANCER genes.

Out cross is exactly as Ven describes it - ie no common ancestors in the preceding five to six generations - I feel to be a genuine outcross, any common ancestors should be further back than that.

Line-breeding is very commonly practiced in the dog-breeding world ie Gt-grand parents or even grandparents to gt g/daughters or sons etc. This is to try and 'fix' certain attributes that you are confident are 'good' and predominant in your line - ie colour or temperamant or good fronts - whatever.

In-breeding is also occasionally used and would encompass Father/daughter; mother/son, half-brother/half-sister and, very rarely, full brother/sister. The latter is only ever done when you know exactly what you're doing and I would suggest very few can confidently predict that!

In-breeding often assumes that you will throw horror stories up but that isn't necessarily the case at all. I am surprised it isn't routinely practised more with t/breds with outstanding fillies being bred back closely on their pedigree but I suppose as a mare only can produce one offspring pa and dogs produce on average 6 per litter and could produce 2 litters per year (not to be encouraged!), you see good or bad results much more quickly with dogs and can take greater risks.

The most successful Weimaraner kennels in the UK and several times top kennels all breeds in the UK has been based on an initial outcross, which produced 2 champions (the sire they used was my first Ch dog). The dog Ch that resulted was mated back to his mother and a daughter from that mating was then bred to a top US import (ie outcross again) several times - I think over 12 champions resulted from this combo and they have gone on to breed dozens more ... many of those being classic line-breeding combos too.

[SteveM]

Selkirk is used as one of the main proven outcrosses from Northern Dancer blood.

[Galileo]

Too lazy to check but isnt Daylami the same? Which is why so many want him to suceed at stud.

[simmo]

Daylami is indeed free of Northern Dancer.

[SteveM]

Yep. As simmo says. Daylami is very hot property for this reason, over and above his good potential as a sire.

[graham]

Shouldn't forget Indian Ridge and Cadeaux Genereux

The Arc and French 1000 Guineas winner Coronation V was inbred to Tourbillon 2x2 but was barren throughout her years in the paddocks so it's questionable whether that was a successful covering or not

[SteveM]

Indeed we should not forget these. In fact among the stallions I'll be looking at for our mare is Domedriver (Indian Ridge's son) as we can't afford Indian Ridge. Domedriver (who unlike his sire does have ND blood on his dam's side) stands with Selkirk (who is free of it) at Kirsten Rausing's Lanwades stud.

I'm also paying Darley a visit the week after next.

[krizon]

One hardly dares to inquire as to your purpose, Steve.... not shuttling, are you? :blink:

[graham]

Steve, what's the name of your mare?

[SteveM]

:lol: I prefer them to come to me Jon.

Enchanted Ocean graham. She's just going to keep lobbing round the racetrack without doing very much so we'll breed from her instead.

[archie]

Thanks for the answers folks.

[Venusian]

Good luck with the breeding project, Steve.

Domedriver has better chances than most, IMO, to make it as a successful sire.

Firstly, he's by Indian Ridge, now confirmed as a sire of sires, and secondly, he's standing at a stud which will give him every chance to succeed.

Looking at his picture on Lanwades' website, Domedriver appears to be a sensibly made, reasonably good-looking horse, without being a stunner. He looks, as his race record shows, more of a speed horse than a staying type. If I was being picky, I suppose you could say that his front and back ends are better than his middle, which looks a trifle weak.

Do you think his conformation will suit your mare?

The resulting foal will be inbred to Northern Dancer (4 X 4, if my arithmetic is correct), but as Domedriver, at least in this photograph, doesn't seem to resemble him in any way, it's not very likely to be a material factor in determining his/her potential aptitudes or characteristics.

[SteveM]

Thanks Ven. I have to think hard about it. I have drawn up a top of the head list of stallions that we can afford. The next part is what lines from those available will suit best.

Likely that ND blood will be involved in the first couple of attempts if thats no good then I'll look at ND-free possibilities. Since we don't have a lot to throw about I'll have to emulate our hero Tesio.

It can't be all that difficult though as I'm sure Julie will tell us. This breeding lark looks a bit of a doss to me. :lol:

[graham]

Steve tried to send you a PM but your inbox is full!

[SteveM]

Thanks graham. I'll clear it out.

[Songsheet]

Prat ..... B)

[SteveM]

:lol:

Thought that would get you going.

[Venusian]

Since we don't have a lot to throw about I'll have to emulate our hero Tesio.

What do you mean by this, Steve?

As his best racehorse, Ribot, was by the Goodwood Cup winner Tenerani, perhaps you're thinking of patronising Kayf Tara or Double Trigger?

Very reasonably priced, at £3000 and £2500 respectively - hope you're breeding to race rather than to sell!

[krizon]

Steve, is there much point in spending stud fees (and related costs) on ENCHANTED OCEAN? Sorry, this is not meant to sound rude (honest!), but as Kathy got a right slagging-off for suggesting the winless BALMACARA would eventually be bred from, why breed from EO, and what chance have you got of getting your money back, let alone a profit?

Julie has been advising me on a few things, as I hope to buy another broodmare in the not-too-distant future. Among these are to not overdo the excellence of the sire with a moderate to poor mare; not to bother with mares that haven't won a few times, and not to bother with a mare that hasn't been rated at least 70. That's if one isn't to virtually gift the foal away at the sales! Other things (apart from the obvious ones of conformation and soundness) being steering clear of stallions who've thrown the odd stinker of a foal - she's put me right off an AVERTI mare I considered, for this reason.

So, though I don't intend to pore over pedigrees, since Julie knows what she's doing and I don't, I'm interested to know why you'd go down this route?

[Songsheet]

since Julie knows what she's doing

Hey, steady on, Jon - thanks for the vote of confidence but I wish!

The reason I would be careful of using AVERTI was because in all the cases we were talking about, they were maiden mares with no breeding form ie, no way of knowing whether or not they were going to throw cripples or not. AVERTI can and does throw some lovely looking foals but can get just as many crooked ones - which can still run (WUNDERS DREAM was one of them - Mr Ellis didn't get the money he wanted for her at the sales, so he kept and raced her).


I'm not too familiar with EO's pedigree but if she has black type winning/placed half-brothers or sisters or dam, then it isn't unreasonable to breed from her.

[SteveM]

She's very well bred with good conformation Jon. The cracked hip that she picked up along the way has stopped her competing at the level we hoped for. You couldn't hope for a better mare however.

It is also common that mares have not won races or indeed run at all.

I have every respect for Jules capabilities, but I have professionally been studying thoroughbred pedigrees for more than 25 years, have bought my own horses at the sales, and I am looking forward to this project. I'll be looking to raise around half a dozen foals over the next decade (some to race, some to sell).

I want something to inject pace and robustness into her good staying pedigree. She is five and by Royal Academy out of the Alleged mare Ocean Jewel. She is a half-sister to several winners, including 12 furlong winners Tjinouska (by Cozzene) and German Derby fourth Ocean Sea (by Bering). The dam was unraced.

Miffed that I had sorted out Cape Cross for her a couple of seasons ago at a modest ten grand. After his stellar subsequent peformance his fee will be set considerably higher (out of our reach). A stallion who could suit her well as a substitute for Cape Cross would be something like Diktat. I am keen on trying Domedriver too before he becomes too expensive.

[SteveM]

P.S. Simply meant that we don't have unlimited resources Ven. I'll be crossing her to speed rather than stamina at first at least, she has plenty of the latter.

[Songsheet]

Well, it's nitty-gritty time for us breeders and I've just scraped out of my ROSSINI filly - she made 9000 gns and may well be going to a decent trainer (for which I would happily sacrifice some dosh). It's a grand more than I had valued her at but nothing to write home about but it's necessary to be realistic about such matters.

I would contend that if we're looking at Steve's particular project, if he's breeding commercially, then he has to acknowledge that there are certain aspects of EO's potential catalog page that he will have to overcome and the major one is that she ran but didn't win. No matter that there may be a good reason behind it - the auctioneer won't be mentioning that when the offspring goes round the ring! Knowing many agents and having worked for one of the best, I know that, faced with catologs with 1000+ yearlings or foals in, they will bypass unraced or winless dams without good pedigrees. Pedigrees which would look to be stoutly bred will also fall out of favour. Unless you use a reliable vendor who can confidently talk up your yearling (or foal), they will just get overlooked. And decent vendors are usually full months in advance and will be very choosy as to what they'll take - it's sometimes necessary for breeders to realise that they may be required to 'stand behind' their youngsters - ie, in the past I've agreeed that if the yearling has a problem within the first four weeks or even longer, we'll take it back or reduce the price! It's the only way of getting a reliable reputation among trainers that you are offering them sound stock, especially when you're just starting out.

One way of overcoming this is to breed to a first or second season sire and to use a decent miler (anything with more speed on a staying pedigree would be viewed with suspicion and as you would be breeding one extreme to another - rarely works well). Commercially using a good miler makes sense. Especially if you strike lucky and get a colt. The very risky element is that you don't know what she throws or what the stallion throws and it's also an easy way to produce a disaster!

With the greatest respect, Steve, studying pedigrees is only half of this game - you need to know conformation, have a very sound knowledge of how the sales industry works, how individuals are prepped, know the right people to use for boarding/prepping, walking in your mare, have a good working knowledge of actually managing your breeding stock, current vet practices (from when to swab your mare, what vaccinations you're going to use etc etc), Weatherbys requirements etc. Then you need to know your sales company reps, which sales to go for and have the necessary clout to get your foal or yearling in the right sale and on the correct day for that individual.

It's all 'doable' and sometimes it's the greatest fun and I wouldn't put off anyone from doing it (not even Kathy! :D ) but it's also not straightforward and there's no point in pretending any differently!

Now you know why I don't back horses - breeding the feckers is gamble enough for me!!

[SteveM]

We'll be racing the first one at least. Who wants to be commercial. :lol: My plan is exactly that to put her to a first or second season sire with speed. Once her first foal wins half a dozen Pattern races the others will be worth a bit more. Looking forward to putting my feet up, like you.

[Venusian]

One thing about this breeding caper, Steve, you'll get plenty of advice, whether you want it or not.

If you're going to be racing the first one, you don't really need to paying the "first season sires premium", you can please yourself and use an "exposed" sire who may not be very fashionable, but might be just the ticket for your mare.

Have you thought of taking EO bandit racing this autumn, to get that elusive win under her belt?

[krizon]

("B-b-bandddit........." sound of loud crash. "I say? Anyone got any smelling salts handy?")

This is such an interesting, complex, high-stress biz. The things that Julie points out are things I had not the slightest idea existed. I thought you just had a nice mare, sent her to a stud, got her in foal, and somehow, somewhere, sold the foal (which of course, would be totally correct and right and a world-beater in the making). :rolleyes: Having only seen the tip of this giant iceberg, I'm amazed that so many people have the stamina, let alone the ability for the work. It's far, far more than I could have envisaged, and what's somewhat terrifying is to see foals by extremely good sires out of mares with jolly nice pedigrees get sold for the price of a fridge, or a small car.

All the effort of everyone concerned - vets, stud staff, transporters, prep yards, handlers, and finally the sales staff - coming down to your adorable, proper little foal going for 500 gns or perhaps 5000. The bulk of the catalog returns look so small individually, I am astounded anyone can afford to make a real living out of it (not counting the mega-studs, of course, but then few breeders start out with a countryful of oil wells).

[Irish Stamp]

Krizon the process goes - in simplified form.

1. send Indian Skimmer to Danehill
2. foal is born, well bred lovely flashy chestnut
3. its prepped in Newmarket
4. it's valued at $1m
5. goes to Tatts October
6. vet come's along, dodgy legs.
7. new value 50k
8. sells for 60k
9. feck.

Martin

[Songsheet]

:lol:


Ven - if Steve didn't want or expect to get advice, then I would suggest discussing the mare on here would not be the way to go about that.

I love the idea that the first foal you breed and race yourself sorts the mare out for the next dozen years.

By the time it's racing as a two year old, as I believe has been pointed out before, no 2 is already on the ground as is number three - four, hopefully, will be in utero. So you better hope like hell that you did get it near right 1st time up, as you've got three more hungry mouths to feed meanwhile.

Using a good, 'exposed' sire is an excellent idea at any point in a mare's career - if you can find one that would suit the mare and your budget, that is.. B)

[Irish Stamp]

Also if you race the first one yourself you avoid the line "placed in three starts in Norway" next to the first foals name in the second foals catalogue page, which would put almost anyone off.

Martin

[krizon]

Cheers, Martin. I thought it was that simple all along! Julie's warned me not to expect the nice result we had with Reach the Wind's filly foal (by Agnes World) to happen every time. In fact, not even the time that's well on its' way presently in her tummy... hey-ho, what the heck? It's only money, isn't it?

[SteveM]

We could give her a break in year two though Jules to heighten the crazed demand for her. :P

[Kathy]

Krizon, there are certain comments made by certain individuals I choose to ignore on this forum for obvious reasons.

My brother is in his 2nd year of pinhooking, this year with a colt from a first season sire. He has been in the industry for over 15 years at the sharp end. He made about £18k from a £2k investment last year (beginners luck no doubt) with his Picollo colt and has been given a great slot for the sales in October this year. The autioneer came to view Chesney about 3-4 weeks ago and really liked him. Chesney is now being prepped and he is an absolute stunner. He loves the horsewalker so much you can't get him out and loves all the current fuss and attention he is getting. That said, we have to find a buyer before we start saying how well he did. I am going with him to Newmarket see the whole project come to an end, hopefully with a big fat profit, and if he doesn't even break even, he won't mind, he knows Chesney may come home with us, and if he does, we will just have to have a rethink.

I think you get out what you put in, and if our project with using Balmacara as a broodmare doesn't go completely to plan, then I have plenty of other projects simmering away in the background to concentrate on. Balmacara is the Escorial Racing syndicate horse, so every shareholder will have their say in what happens, and it will be great to get everyone involved to experience the highs and lows. We haven't decided on a sire yet as we have her in training until the end of the flat season, and then we will sit down and discuss our options. It is probably going to be a first season sire though.

I wish Steve M lots of luck with his personal project.

Exciting times ahead methinks.

[Songsheet]

Good luck to your brother, Kathy - with 15 years of experience behind him beginner's luck doesn't even start to come into it. He obviously knows what he's doing. As you saw yourself at Windsor, PICCOLO is often a great choice as a sire..... His yearling sounds like having had every possible advantage to get a good sale price and you can't do more than that.

Even though Ven doesn't particularly approve of the rush to use first season sires, you can't get away from the fact that, to be commercial, that is often one of the ways to go - especially at the lower end of the market (ie, those of us without Middle Eastern oil well money!).

I can't say I totally agree with the view that you get out of it what you put into it, though - Luck really can play a major part in this game as we all know and months and years of really hard work and investment can go tits up in seconds - as anyone who has been at the yearling sales will know when the word goes round that the x yearling just reared up and went over, breaking a leg....

Hopefully, that won't happen to anyone of us on here, though! As Kathy says - Good Luck Miller!

[krizon]

How do you get 'a great slot for the sales', Kathy? I stupidly chucked last year's catalogue, but I thought they went alphabetically by mare? Which day is he going on? I tried to track REACH THE WIND'S foal via the phone line, which was usefully out of order all day. Very annoying! It's obviously more interesting to be there. I'm sure you won't have to take the foal home, but what's the deal - do you set a reserve, or is it open-ended? I told Julie today how shocked I'd been to see so many going for a mere 500 gns, which is teeth-picking money, so I assume you'd not accept a bid so low?

[Ardross]

I see that the Daggers Drawn- Runs in the Family went for 22000 guineas

83 b, f, y, Namid—Piping Pearl (In The Wings)
From Trickledown Stud Jill Lamb Bloodstock 10,000
84 b, f, y, Mull Of Kintyre—About Face (Midyan)
From Trickledown Stud The Racing Guild 7,000
85 b, f, y, Rossini—Without Warning (Warning)
From Trickledown Stud Robin O'Ryan 9,000
86 b, c, y, Daggers Drawn—Runs In The Family (Distant Relative)
Property of Mrs L. Stone & Mrs M. Woolgar from Trickledown Stud John Norton 22,000
87 b, c, y, Piccolo—Miss Dangerous (Komaite)
From Trickledown Stud Walter Swinburn 20,000
88 gr, c, y, Orpen—Yalciyna (Nishapour)
From Trickledown Stud David Barron 38,000
89 b, f, y, Piccolo—Passiflora (Night Shift)

[Bar the Bull]

Fascinating thread.

Best of luck, Miller.

[SteveM]

Luck is for amateurs. :lol:

Ta anyway Baz and Kat.

[Shadow Leader]

Crikey, Jules.....didn't know that you had one of Miss D's colts!!!!! What was he like? I'd be very interested to see any pictures of him you may have, (I have a sneaky suspicion lambournlss may be interested too) if he's anything like his old Mum he'll be built like the proverbial brick shitehouse!!! I was at Mick's in the days when Miss D was in training; although she could pull at times she was a fantastic ride & a lovely filly, everyone loved her. She could certainly trap some too; I can imagine her colt will be pretty damn quick too being by Piccolo. Is he her first yearling? Let me think....if memory serves me correctly he should be her 2nd? Well done at getting the 20,000 gns for him too, you must have been happy with that? Anyway, any info about him would be gratefully received!!!

[Songsheet]

James listings are not mine - well, except for the ROSSINI - they're Trickledown's first up draft. T/down are partners in several mares with me.

But when the St Leger's finished, I'll ask Paul about her and post the info on here for you!

[Kathy]

It's the Thursday night Krizon. I am not 100% how it works Jon, BUT my bruv said that the auctioneer has some say in which foals go out when and that his foal had got a good spot. I will find out and revert. This sales part is all brand new to me too, so excuse the fact I am abit clueless. I was gutted I couldn't go last year so I am making certain I can go this year and see what happens up close. My brother is going up to the sales working, so I am going with his girlfriend and probably JinnyJ if she is a available to make it a real girls day/night out. I am really excited about the whole thing though, and as Chesney is such a star, I wouldn't mind if he wasn't sold as we could put him in training with JinnyJ and watch her make a superstar out of him! I think my brother has other ideas though! :D

[tetley]

Originally posted by Kathy@Sep 8 2004, 09:20 AM

He made about £18k from a £2k investment last year
Could you please tell me how the 2k investment breaks down please.

tetley

[Shadow Leader]

Cheers, Jules....I'd love to know how the old girl's getting on.

[Kathy]

The £2k was the approx cost of the foal Tetley, as "board and lodgings" are free at a local stud he knows! There would have been a few extra's like the transport to the sales (he shared a box), plus vets bills etc. but I am not sure of the exact cost of these. They are just ball-park figures as me and me bruv don't discuss his personal business dealings in great detail! B)
If he's in a good mood this weekend, I may see if he will give me the exact costs if you want them!

[krizon]

Thanks, Kathy, and good luck to your brother's endeavour.

[tetley]

Thanks its being something I have was thinking about for this years sale.

Tetley.

ps the strong start to doncaster sales reinforces this view.

[Kathy]

Thanks Jon! B)

Tetley, I certainly don't know all the answers, but if there is anything I can help you with as I find the breeding side fascinating , or any questions you need answering, you only have to ask and I will do my best to find out for you!

I will let you know how we get on up at Newmarket. I have a feeling my brother will be trying to lead up, with me hanging onto Chesneys tail in tears not wanting him to be sold! :D He doesn't know what he is letting himself in for inviting me to go along! :lol:

[Songsheet]

It's certainly an exciting (and worrying) time when they go through the ring - bit like when they set hoof on the racecourse - just the relief of getting them there in one piece is pretty overwhelming.

But it's when the auctioneer starts getting bids over your break-even costs that the real excitement kicks in, especially if you can see that a 'decent' agent or trainer is bidding. That's where it differs a little between pin-hookers and breeders - if you've pin-hooked, then obviously each foal-purchase is a 'one-off' - if you've bred it and maybe still have siblings or dam at home, then where the yearling ends up is nearly as important as the price achieved - muppet trainers can cost you money, not make it for you!

That's not to say pin-hookers don't have their reputations to guard - of course they do - but for some reason the industry is a bit more forgiving in that area!

Good luck to all!

[SteveM]

"It's certainly an exciting (and worrying) time when they go through the ring".

Look, I won't be putting any of ours into the Circus, it just demeans the thoroughbred in my opinion and any reference to Coco The Clown on the sales sheets just looks bad.

[Songsheet]

It's OK, Coco, if you don't want to be identified as the vendor on the catalog page, it's not compulsory .......

[SteveM]

Ha! Ha! Ha!... Now where's that custard pie.

[Kathy]

Pinhooking is similar in the respect that if your foal is from a first year sire for instance, you are watching where the other siblings end up (which trainer) and checking on the results of any of the 2yo's running during the season. One of Chesney's relations, has won a nice race at Newmarket recently and has been entered for a classy race in France soon. He needs the rain to come though as he relishes the softer going.

So whether pinhooking or breeding, watching the foals siblings can have a direct bearing on the value of any foal being sold, either by the breeder or the owner (pinhooker - if there is such a word!. ) :D

[tetley]

Kathy whats his catalogue number if you don't mind. I had them sent to me a few weeks ago.


Tetley.

ps I will be at Newmarket and will keep an eye out.

[Kathy]

I'll find out Tetley, and PM you. If you are around on the Thursday, please get in touch and we could possibly meet up!

[tetley]

I'm usually there for the whole week

[Irish Stamp]

As some will know i'm getting into breeding and well sales a lot more now (well researching, knowledge, bloodlines etc.) is it easy to access the sales? Like to go and watch or is it a closed shop type thing?

The reason i ask is that i live near Doncaster (sometimes) so would like to pop down their sometimes having been past it on the way to the races.

Martin

[Ardross]

sorry Julie I thought Runs in the Family was one of yours

[trudij]

Anyone can go Martin - and you dont usually need a buyer number.......... B)

[Irish Stamp]

Originally posted by trudij@Sep 10 2004, 07:41 PM
Anyone can go Martin - and you dont usually need a buyer number.......... B)
Thanks, i wonder what i can get with me student loan? B)

[jinnyj]

Some owners of mine have just got £30,000 for their Cape Cross filly at Doncaster which they are delighted with especially since the mare hasn't had a winner yet and the pedigree is pretty ordinary. Amazing what a difference a good year makes to a stallion sales prices especially if his star performer just happens to be Ouja Board!

[Irish Stamp]

Ok, lol, well if i use all the loan i'm 27k short on a Cape Cross filly, now Tomba, Spadoun anyone?

Martin

[Kathy]

I got it wrong :shy: There is no specific time Chesney goes through the ring, just "Thursday evening" which is evidently a good time to be shown. I'll let you know if that is actually true after the sales. B)

[Galileo]

Martin fully advise you to go. The atmosphere can be electric there. Also spend plenty of time examing the horse for confirmation faults or otherwise. Sales are a great way of comparing horses of all types.

[Ardross]

Just be careful not to make any sudden movements , or exaggerated scratches of your nose or you could find yourself as having made the winning bid on a 280000 guineas colt !

[Galileo]

Indeed! But oh its just Doncaster.....so more likely to be 2800!!

[Kathy]

Another of Chesneys siblings was a short head 2nd to a nice horse in Ireland this week. Shot out of the pack but just didn't quite get up to the line. I will be watching this horse next time out!

Plus one of the best hopes is one of Chesney's siblings with possible chances at Newbury this coming weekend, IF the ground stays on the soft side. If this horse wins, it is bound to add a few £'s to Chesney's value! Well, thats the theory anyway! B) This foal selling malarkey is getting exciting. :D

[Songsheet]

I am confused - am I right in thinking Chesney is a yearling, Kathy - going to Tatts Part II? or Part I?

[Kathy]

Chesney's a yearling. Not sure which part, whichever part it is that happens on 14th October Songsheet!

[tetley]

Its part II Kathy/Songsheet. The format has changed in that there is no longer the Houghton sale this is now part I.

Tetley

[Irish Stamp]

Good stuff, i'll be going along to the next Doncaster sale (hopefully) and will have me debit card handy just in case.

Martin

[Kathy]

Thanks Tetley. It's a good job you know what you are talking about! :D

[SteveM]

Visited Dalham Hall Stud and the National Stud yesterday. Have decided on the stallion with two or three others as back up in subsequent seasons. Have fixed his price before the new ones are published too (we also get it lower if it is set lower, which it won't be). Will be tying up the loose ends in the next few days.

Thanks for the board offer Jules but we're pretty much sorted for the time being at least.

[graham]

Can you tell us who you went for Steve?

[Irish Stamp]

Always been a huge fan of Bertolini so hope it was him Steve.

[SteveM]

I’ve been looking at the success rate of Mr Prospector-line stallions with Royal Academy mares (with a little help from a certain friend at Weatherbys – thanks for the details, it is appreciated), which added to this stallion's physicality and precociousness will hopefully strengthen the weaker aspects of our one. A bargain for the money too and having a terrific first season. It was a close call between this one and a couple of others though (which included my initial fancy Diktat as a substitute for Cape Cross). Some of you will already have worked it out, but until the paperwork is finalised I’ll keep the rest of you guessing.

[Venusian]

It must be Lujain.

I suppose he could be considered reasonable value at around £5k, he's done quite well with his first crop.

For a reason I can't quite put my finger on, he's not a horse I like very much. Maybe he beat a horse I backed! Good luck with him anyway.

[Irish Stamp]

Originally posted by Venusian@Sep 17 2004, 10:42 PM
It must be Lujain.

I suppose he could be considered reasonable value at around £5k, he's done quite well with his first crop.

For a reason I can't quite put my finger on, he's not a horse I like very much. Maybe he beat a horse I backed! Good luck with him anyway.
He does have the most individual winners of any freshman in the world this year - or something like that so i read in Pacemaker today.
Sorry the post is brief but its getting late
Martin

[SteveM]

He may not be first choice for every mare, but for our mare he looks very right.

[Songsheet]

Hope you got a good deal, Steve... ! Plenty to be had there.

Not sure this is the season I'd have used him and there were plenty of very bad lookers in his first two crops but he is getting some useful runners and the question is how well he continues to be supported re quality of his mares from now on.

[SteveM]

Which is a good reason to use him early on. Interesting what you say about the foals. The Lujains are supposed to be looking particularly well with a particularly high yearling sales average and with Darley's reputation for supporting it's clients at the sales and Seeking The Gold being the same sire of Dubai Millennium, and knowing how Shiekh M has a fondness for that line (buying up 50 of the 52 DM foals and others that are related), well who knows...

[Songsheet]

There were an awful lot of them that never saw the Sales Steve. But we bought a mare in foal to him as I liked the horse and we did well enough with her at the sales.

Sam Bullard came to see our LUJAIN as a foal, as he was going around seeing as many of them as he could that year and said she was the best looking filly he'd seen so far, which was corroborated by both Michael Dale and Teddy Beckett from both Sales companies. Like most sires, he'll get lookers and cripples!

[The Judge]

Interesting yearling filly entered for the Oct. sales by Distant Music out of Distant Music, wonder what they'll name her :D

[Latefortheraces]

Originally posted by The Judge@Sep 18 2004, 06:33 PM
Interesting yearling filly entered for the Oct. sales by Distant Music out of Distant Music, wonder what they'll name her :D
Someone suggested Stereo on an earlier thread.....brilliant whoever that was ! :shy: :D

[Kathy]

Julie, absolutely no offence intended but I personally wouldn't trust Sam Bullard nor The Right Honourable Teddy Beckett as far as I could throw either of them. A long story... :nerd:

Teddy Beckett was Peter Harris's "Bloodstock Agent" who managed to sell Thai Morning to a chap in the USA when the horse was clearly not for sale. As for Sam Bullard, well, he appears to be in the pocket of certain trainers and managed to value my horse to encourage me to sell him back to a trainer who had an interested buyer for him for alot more money than I was offered ! The trainer was secretly schooling my horse over fences (and found an immediate buyer) without my permission or knowledge but I found out. Some trainers really are the pits! :angy: No wonder some trainers like to keep the owners of their horses away from each other. Its no wonder some of them say "please phone before turning up"! :confused:

[SteveM]

True Julie. But isn't that the chance you take? Like anyone else you should try to reduce the downside and proceed on a best endeavours basis. As in life there are no guarantees. The alternative is to sit around and do nothing.

As I say, I am satisfied from the available options that Lujain is the right choice this time for this mare. If I am wrong I only have myself to blame. And when it boils down to it, does anyone else really know any better? After two or three goes at it we'll see if I'm any better or worse than anyone else. At least I have done my homework in identifying the best male lines for Royal Academy mares. We do not have access to every stallion in the world, but Newmarket has the greatest concentration of stallions and thoroughbreds anywhere, so I guess it will have to do.

[Songsheet]

Erm, Steve - I'm not criticising your choice at all! Sorry if that's what it sounded like - as you rightly say, it's pretty much a lottery and she's got a grand broodmare sire, so that's one tick in the box on the plis side, for a start!

As I've said previously, breeding anything relies on skill and luck in about equal proportions.

[SteveM]

...I'm sure you are right. And you are in a better position than most to judge.

[Kathy]

The sales are almost upon us, so I am currently organising a days racing at Newmarket on Thursday for some of the Balmacara syndicate members and then off to the sales to see my brothers colt going through the ring. He has had to send me a map as I didn't appreciate how big the place was. My brother is actually working up there this week, so I will try and get some behind the scenes information & perhaps a quick tour. He even suggested he would wear a "Whose The Daddy" Escorial green racing jacket while he was up there, but I explained not many people would know what it meant! :D

I can't tell you how excited I am, and looking forward to experiencing a racehorse sale first hand, especially when my Brother's colt goes through.

Fingers crossed he makes a few quid!

[Songsheet]

Well, good luck from me, for a start - I hope he sells well for your bro and goes to a good trainer.

[Kathy]

Thanks Songsheet. His last one went to my old mate Peter Harris, and it doesn't look as if ever had a run. My brother wants to keep an eye on the horses obviously, just to see how they do. Perhaps his pinhook from last year will come out as a good 3 year old running for Walter Swinburn, who I understand is taking over from Peter Harris very soon.

[BrianH]

How did your brother get on at the sales, Kathy?

[Songsheet]

Don't know about Kathy's brother but I know several pinhookers were crying into their beer from Tuesday on last week - it was a bit of a bloodbath.

However, one of my mates had a very nice touch on the Friday morning with the only Septieme Ciel colt in the Pt II sale which they genuinely thought they would be bringing home - he made 20,000 gns!

I, however, am deeply pessimistic re the Donny Sales this week - fillies will be going for nothing and I'm glad I've only the one to sell!

All my foals leave at the end of the week to be prepped or, in the case of the IRON MASK, to go to my partners until the yearling sales next year, as I don't have any mates for him to run with as the other three are selling as foals.

It will be an interestng market at the Foal/Mares Sales this winter, I reckon!!

[jinnyj]

You're not wrong there Julie about the bloodbath. I have never been to a sale like it and the constant rain didn't help either. You could almost hear the thuds as the vendors jumped off the roof of Tattersalls. A friend of mine in his first season pinhooking on his own got a miserly £10k for £40k of foals. He is sitting quietly in a dark room on his own!

I'm not sure of the reason, possibly it was to do with the strong Pound as many of the foreign buyers didn't seem to be about but then neither did the smaller trainers who quite often spec buy. I bought a Mujahid filly out of a 90 rated mare who won at 2 and has produced a 2yo winner already. She's correct, very powerful and should make a 2yo - and all for £1,500. But there were plenty of nice horses around and I don't see why there won't be winners aplenty from the sale.

[an capall]

Sorry for being a bit thick, but what does 'pinhooking' mean? How does this relate to K's brother selling a horse at Newmarket?

[Irish Stamp]

Originally posted by an capall@Oct 19 2004, 07:33 PM
Sorry for being a bit thick, but what does 'pinhooking' mean? How does this relate to K's brother selling a horse at Newmarket?
Pinhooking as far as i know is buying a horse cheaply as a foal (for say 2,000gns) and selling it at a profit as a yearling (for say 35,000gns).

Martin

[Kathy]

Sorry, I missed this earlier Brian. In answer to your question, my Brother had been working up there for a couple of days and was hearing first hand all the horror stories of horses that had been purchased for £45k plus and being sold for £3-£4k. There was hardly anyone turning up at the sales, and on the Thursday when we went, the weather was appalling. We went to the races first and the sun actually came out in the afternoon and the rain eventually stopped. His colt was only pulled out of his box about 5 times all day, and yet that was 5 times more than many others in the same yard. The chap he was working for took many of his foals home unsold. In answer to your question though, he was involved in 2 horses that went through the ring, and one was sold for £10K and the other £3.5k. He was pleased with this, especially as there were some really nice horses going through for £800.00 or went home unsold.

My Sister and Brother in Law live in America and they actually watched the sale "live" and saw me & "my party" on their computer as the horses went through the ring. We had actually sat to the right of the autioneer and were in view every time a horse went round - although I didn't have a clue where the camera was.

It has not put my brother off though, and he is hoping to do the exact same thing again next year, and who knows, I may go into partnership with him on his next one. As he knows many people at Judmonte and Gainsborough he manages to get some of the background information on some of the good horses, but it would mean paying out alot more money than he has this last 2 years with no guarantee of any profit.

We were all quite sad to see Chesney go as he is a lovely horse and his manners were impeccable but hopefully we will see him out on the racecourse next year.

It was a real buyers market this time, but I wouldn't have missed the experience for the world and hope to be going back as a buyer one day.

[Songsheet]

There was an interesting article in the Sales review in Sunday's RP - the new format Tatts Pt I & II was not a success - turnover was well done and over-production of foals is starting to bite. Reasons cited were:

Rising interest rates and rising global oil prices; over production of foals (which is set to continue until at least 2006, as we have 2004 foals on ground now and 2005 in utero); fall in property market; breeding from poorly conformed mares and/or non-winning mares; poor prize money in the UK compared with other countries etc etc.

I had already decided, well before these sales, to dispense with two of our broodmares - one is about to be re-schooled as a riding horse as I decided not to put her back in foal this year (thank heavens!), the other will go to the sales in foal to a good commercial sire - she's dam of two winners and it might just be the right time to move her on.


Good luck to Chesney and to Kirsty's new purchase next year on the racecourse - I reckon there will have been some very good bargains to be had during last week and we'll all be reading this time next year about some amazingly cheap purchase that comes through the pack to be a decent winner!

[Kathy]

Thanks Songsheet. It would be lovely to have a fairytale story of a really cheap purchase at the sales this Autumn winning one of the Group 1 races. I can assure you it won't be me this year, but next year, who knows.

My brother is trying to persuade me to go into a partnership with him where he will be responsible for choosing and purchasing the horses (presumably with my money!) and I will evidently syndicate them for Escorial racing.

At the moment, I have been so busy at work everything else has had to go on the backburner, but hopefully, things will take on some normality soon, and I can try and work out a way to enjoy my racing, without work getting in the way all the time.

We all have to be able to dream! :rolleyes: B)

I have the added problem that my own racehorse, is nearly ready to start road work again after having 9 months off with a tendon injury. He may be ready to commence training again after Christmas, but I am in two minds whether to retire him from racing or give him another go. Decisions.... decisions....

[Kathy]

An, Martin is correct. Pinhooking is buying foals with a view to selling them on at a profit the following year. It is a gamble of course, but they do occasionally pay off. This year saw many people lose alot of money at the sales as some of the well bred yearlings they were practically giving away. People don't seem to have the same amount of money as perhaps this time last year and with the economy in the state it is, I am wondering if people are being a little more careful with their hard earned. I am being inundated with letters at the moment asking me to join various syndicates so someone is obviously selling my address. B) My friends have been invited to a Peter Harris Open Day soon (strangely enough I didn't get an invite to that one) so they are going along just to see how things have changed and to catch up on the gossip!

[BrianH]

Kathy, most who spend at the sales aren't spending "hard earned"...

[Songsheet]

At the bottom end it would be more likely to be the case, I think, Brian !

After all, I expect most syndicate/partnership members would think that there money was 'hard-earned' - I bloody do!

[Kathy]

Me too Songsheet. The last 2 months have been horrendous on the work front, but have managed to get the days off to do the important things...like go racing! :P It really does (nearly) make all the hard work seem worth it! I did say "nearly"! :D

[Songsheet]

My filly fared a tad better than I expected but still only a paltry 1600gns - and that's stood me in at a loss of about £1k, as I had a very, very cheap JOSR nomination last year, thank heavens. So I won't be joining in any suicidal leaps but it's pretty much what I expected would happen with this market.

She's gone off to be a NH store in Ireland.

[Ralph]

Hardly a right slagging off Krizon.

My point regarding the breeding of poor quality mares in an already saturated market, would appear supported to some extent by the experiences of members contributing to this topic.

As an industry, we cannot keep producing with no consequence, it's hard enough with stock that has proven ability, let alone with animals that have none.

To me, it's a foolhardy and irresponsible exercise, but people can of course do as they please, regardless of the bigger picture.


Welcome back.

[BrianH]

Ralph, are you responding to an imaginary posting from Krizon or is my PC just blocking out her contributions?

[Ralph]

The answer to the first part of your question Brian is No, I'm afraid I am unable to answer the second part.

Should you take the time to read all of the contributions to this topic, you will in due course be able to answer your own question and therefore understand the point I was making in my posting.

[BrianH]

Well, that came over as a little terse. It's not the most self-fulfilling thing at times, but I do read every posting that's made - it's a task that is set to moderators.

It was your "Welcome back" that I didn't understand - krizon's last posting on this thread was made on 10th September and as she has no PC at present (though she is looking to buy a new lap-top) she has not been seen at all in the month of October. I genuinely thought that I was missing something and that she had reappeared, as if by magic.

[Kathy]

Brian, I must admit, it threw me too!

[Pyle]

Hi guys, long time no see - what a wonderful thread this is, enjoyed reading it. I must admit to knowing naff all about the breeding side of things. Still unsure about retiring Goldeva at the end of the season or keeping her going next year or not, spose depends on how she winters and whether she still enjoying her job. Now she has Northern Dancer on both sides of her pedigree also, would still like to get her covered by Oasis Dream (not sure about his pedigree) and obviously we couldnt afford to keep all her foals - would be interesting to see how much her foals made at the sales. I think at the moment Oasis Dream is something like £25k (ouch!!) :o

[Ralph]

My apologies if it came over rather terse in it's nature Brian, but it was genuinely said more tongue in cheek than critical. Regard it more as a reference to the fact that you do appear to read all contributions to topics. In retrospect, perhaps I should consult the dates of the postings to maintain some accuracy.

Which threw you Kathy, my reply to Brian, or my opinion regarding the saturation of the market, contributed to, by the breeding of poor horses which should be culled or found more suitable careers outside the racing industry?

[Venusian]

Pyle, if you were to send Goldeva to Oasis Dream the resulting foal would be inbred to Northern Dancer 4X5X4X5 (including 4X4 to the still living Lyphard).

In fact, all 4 great-grandsires would be tail-male descendants of ND.

I think that's overdoing things a bit!

[tetley]

Originally posted by Songsheet@Oct 21 2004, 03:02 PM
My filly fared a tad better than I expected but still only a paltry 1600gns - and that's stood me in at a loss of about £1k, as I had a very, very cheap JOSR nomination last year, thank heavens.
Songsheet would you mind giving me a breakdown of the costs.

[Songsheet]

Hi Pyle - would agree with Ven - pretty difficult but fun decision you have to make!

Ven - would Cadeaux Genereux suit her? Or maybe Indian Ridge?

[SteveM]

Continuing the theme of breeding horses being a piece of piss… even mildly intelligent people can surely excel at this game, especially if they can remain sober for short periods… The industry is beset with such nincompoops.

Even Lujain isn’t looking bad value at five grand now with the same sire as Dubai Millennium and the likes of Group performing Classic Encounter, Kuaicoss and the Fabre-trained Stop Making Sense being joined by the recent Jarvis-trained Princess Margaret Stakes winner Mixed Blessing.